What's Involved in Converting an Original Spencer to Shoot Centerfire?

[Two Flints]

Help me out here,

The only thing holding me back from getting an original Spencer is  that I know nothing about
 the conversion procedure necessary to get an original Spencer to shoot centerfire rounds. 
Assuming that I don't  have the expertise to do the conversion myself,  who out there,
 what companies out there, will do it for me.  Will S & S?   Firearms, and will Romano
do it? Anyone else?  Cost?  Any drawbacks?  Can any original Spencer be converted? 

I'd appreciate your input.

Two Flints

[Trailrider]

Howdy, Pard,

The first thing you MUST do is have the gun checked over by a gunsmith who really knows what he's doing!  Unfortunately, I don't know who might be able to do that, but you might be able to find one by asking on ALL the forums.

I would strongly recommend having the barrel and receiver tested using non-destructive testing, such as magnetic-particle or other appropriate methods. The receivers on these guns are effectively wrought iron, rather than true steel. The barrels are generally mild steel.  But age and corrosion can result in weak spots, which NDT might be able to pick up.  Still, on guns approaching 140-145 years old, you pays your money and takes your chances!

So far as the mechanics of converting to centerfire are concerned, S&S says that their breechblock will fit 95% of most Spencer military rifle/carbine receivers. The other 5% will require fitting of the block.  The one I fitted some years back was one of the latter. Now I can barely file a flat surface, but by careful study and filing and fitting, I was able to get the block to work okay.

The next thing is to fit up the firing pin.  I would recommend buying SEVERAL firing pins and strikers.  I set mine up according to the instructions as an inertia-type firing pin. (With the hammer fully down, the firing pin doesn't project from the breechblock face, being retracted by a spring. When the hammer falls, the firing pin flies forward with enough force to fire the cartridges. (This is the arrangement used on the M1911 pistol!)

The third thing is to change the existing round-nose steel follower to the FLATNOSE BRASS FOLLOWER sold by S&S. (A hard rubber one would be more to my liking!)  You MUST also use FLATNOSE BULLETS, preferrably with a meplat (flat) of .250" wide!  Failure to do any of these things COULD result in a magazine explosion, WHICH COULD RUIN YOUR WHOLE DAY!

And, of course, you must obtain ammo.  There is .56-50 being made. If you are converting a .56-56 (M1860), you may need to ream the inside of the case necks, and use a .535" bullet.

I hope this helps a bit, Pard!

Ride careful!

Trailrider

[Two Flints]

Thanks Trailrider,

I appreciate your comments. and explanation.  So if I get an S & S Conversion kit  they send along the directions and I would be doing the installation.  One of the members of SSS indicated that his Spencer was converted by Romano Rifle Company to shoot 56-50 cartridges.  Is this the same set up?  Any one know?  I'll  try to get Larry Romano to describe what he does, unless one of the members can explain his procedure to me

Thanks again Trailrider,

Two Flints

[Advertising]

[hendrick]

If an old coot like me can do it, you can too. I got my conversion block from S&S
and the instruction sheet with it was very clear. It was a very fast fit with only
maybe a couple of swipes with a stone. Go for it and good shooting. Starline sent
 me a couple of their Taylor 56-50 cases to try but they will not extract in my
 original M1865 carbine. The rim needs to be at least .020 larger to catch the
 extractor. My cases were made by RMC to my specs. I have some original
 loaded I took measurements from. My cases are less than an inch and my
 mold is a rapine that was made using an original bullet (375gr) and flattening
 the nose. Works good for me.

[Two Flints]

Thanks Hendrick,

Appreciate the vote of confidence.  The other problem I see for myself is loading my own shells.  Will the 56-50 cartridges that Ten-X sells work with the S&S conversion, or am I barking up the wrong tree?   Don't see loading as a  possibility, just have too  many other fires going right now.

Two Flints

[hendrick]

Don't know about commercial ammo. I do load my own. I don't have to resize, just use
 them from the mold is about right and pan lube. The old ammo I have came with the
 carbine so I know it was sized right as only 6 out of the box of 20 was there. I do find
 OAL is very, very critical.

[Two Flints]

Thanks again Hendrick,

Maybe someone else will jump in and comment on whether or not commercial ammo will work with an S&S conversion kit.  Taylor has a 56-50 Spencer, and I'm told the Ten-X ammo works fine with it.  Just need to find out about the S&S  set up and commercial ammo workability with it.

Two Flints

[hendrick]

Don't think the conversion would have any effect. It would be the chamber size and more specifically in my thinking, the rim diameter. Also, Is the ammo BP? I would hope so.

[Two Flints]

Hendrick,

Just checked the Ten-X web site.  Their 56-50 round for Spencer rifles is loaded with 350 grains of BLACK POWDER.  Don't know about  rim size or other measurement needed for original Spencers.

Two Flints

[major]

In response to the brass question. I think that Ten-X makes several different brass cases one for the Tayor Spencer and two for an original (56-50 & 56-56).  I got the brass for my 56-56 Spencer from Ballard when they were making brass.  I think they sold out the brass production to Ten-X.

My personal experience with 1860 Spencers is that when I was shooting my 56-56, it was very inconsistent.  From a bench at 50 yards I could shoot 3 holes in the ten touching each other, then my 4th  and 5th  shot would be in the 6 or 7 ring high right or low left.  I think that the heeled bullet was the problem.  I don’t think that the bullets always got seated consistently in the brass and I think that some were cocked.  Not enough to make it obvious with just a casual inspection but just enough to make the bullet enter the rifling at an angle and exit the muzzle on a slight angle and thus make it go off point of aim.  The cartridges were also very messy, as the lube is all on the outside of the bullet.  If you are going to get a barrel relined I would suggest that you have it made into a 56-50 and save yourself a lot of hassles.  That’s what they did late in the war when they re-barreled most of the Spencers to 50 caliber.

The follower in my 56-50 was already brass and all I did was put it in my lathe and flattened out the point by taking a little of the nose.

For you sights, I was able to take some reproduction sight parts that I got from Romano and fit it to one of my originals.  It has been some years since I did it but as I remember very little fitting work was required.
Terry

[#31]

Two Flints,
Concerning the Ten-X Spencer 56-50 pre-loaded ammo, I ordered one box, rather expensive, and when it arrived it is marked "BLACK POWDER SUBSTITUTE LOADS".  I had planned to shoot the Spencer in the N-SSA which accepts black powder only, so having this labeled "SUBSTITUE" bothers me some.  What might this be loaded with, anyone know?
Steve Sullivan
46th Illinois, N-SSA
retired history teacher of little merit...

[Two Flints]

# 31,

I have sent an Email to Ken at Ten-X and hopefully he will respond with some information about his Spencer ammo.  We'll have to wait and see.

#31, I sent you a personal Email and your status as a retired teacher.

The only time I ever watched Star Trek was so that I could see #7.!

Two Flints

[ryder747]

ryder747
 my spencer came to me from a garage corner with a smoothbore barrel and no forearm.
 i bought all the s&s parts i needed but the breechblock wouldn't fit. i had the breechblock
 link machined to correct size but it still didn't work. since i needed a new barrel anyhow
 i just sent it to larry romano to have whatever done that needed done. he later told me
 he had breechblock conversions of his own which i would have gotten in the first place.
 i have since gotten my molds dies and 10 tube blakeslee box from him. rmc seems to
 have the best brass since it has the correct bevel to the rim which bell 50/70 brass doesn't
 have.

[Harve Curry]

My center fire breech block was made by a gunsmith who had access to a duplicating mill. He took the original rimfire B.block and copied it exactly, except making it a central firing pin. It works very smooth.
 One thing it doesn't have is a rebounding firing pin like described above, the pin does have a spring holding it up but not strong enough to hold that heavy hammer back.
The original rimfire has no rebounding spring at all. I only chamber a round when it's in my hands & I intend to shoot, otherwise I carry it chamber empty.
This was before I knew of S&S, Romano, or any others.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is to keep the original breech block stored and labeled with the Spencer. I labeled mine with one of those heavy paper tags on a wire tie. Written is what it is, what it goes to, & serial number.
If your removing the original magazine folloer for a brass or aluminum one, attach it with the breech block and label together.

[Kevin]

Converting a Spencer to centerfire is quite easy.  I purchased my centerfire block from Lodgewood out of Wisconsin.  Works beautiful.  All you have to do is remove your existing block and put the new one in its place.
  As far as brass is concerned I purchased 150 cases from Ballard Rifle and Cartridge out of Cody Wyoming.  This is not cut down brass, it is custom cases for the 56-50 Spencer.  I have been shooting this brass in N-SSA competition for 10 years and I am just now getting splits in the necks.  This brass also comes anelied from the factory. The phone number is 307-587-9693.  Just a note the cases are not cheap.  The last I heard they go for $42.00 per 20.  Well worth it.
  For loads I shoot 34 grains 2F Goex, CCI large rifle magnum primers, Bullet is lubed with SPG and cast 1::20, tin to lead.  No wad in case. Powder is slightly shaken down, light crimp on case.

[Arizona Trooper]

A couple comments about 56-56. The Rapine bullet everybody uses doesn't hold enough lube. If you are shooting a carbine and your bore is perfect, it will shoot pretty well. Otherwise you'll have problems. Mike Owziak makes a mould with larger grease grooves and a beveled base, and it's available in .535" and .540" sizes. 

The other problem with 56-56 is that the bullets need to be soft, 16 to 1 lead tin or softer. If you dig fired slugs out of the backstop and can still see the heal, they are too hard. The base will dish out quite a bit, which also doesn't help accuracy. That's why the Owziak bullet has a beveled base (like the Lyman 45-60 express bullet, but bigger). When fired, the base goes flat as the heal expands. This helps accuracy A LOT.

Jim Lienieke and I came up with this bullet for N-SSA 56-56 shooters and Jim promptly went out and won a medal with it. By the way, I don't make any money on these. Just got a good deal on my mould a few years ago.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

LOADING FOR THE .56-.56 is not too bad if you use Buffalo Arms brass and Rapine .535 375 grain.  The key is to not over compress the powder, as that is what causes the bullets to tip and not seat straight. If they are tipped, they can be more prone to popping out when fed.  When the brass is virgin (unfired), I load 37 grains (volume) of Triple 7 FFG.  After firing, the cases are a little expanded from the virgin state and will take 38.5 g grains, even after resizing.  This closely duplicates the 42 grain original load of BP as the Triple 7 is 10-15% hotter per volume.  The 4D dies from Buffalo are $89 and crimp the case mouth arpound the heel, as long as you don't use too much powder!

[#31]

Two Flints,
Had you ever gotten a reply from TEN-X as to what their Spencer black powder SUBSTITUTE load might be?  I am lazy or I would have inquired as well.
Steve Sullivan

[Two Flints]

Hi Steve,

I did contact Ken at Ten-X Ammo and he tried to submit a post but had trouble with the web site, I guess.  I will try him again and send him your question as you posted it on this thread.  I'll get back to you as soon as I can.

Two Flints

[Trailrider]

Howdy, Pards,

I just checked some original .56-50 ammo manufactured by D.C. Sage and (I think) Winchester.  Rim diameter ranged from .640-.646".  When I converted a M1860 carbine in .56-56, the only source of brass was the old lot Dixie Gun Works .50-70.  These required the rims to be turned down to .643" =/- .001", which worked fine so long as the lever was worked reasonably smartly.  If you attempt to work the action slowly, the knife blade extractor will likely slip past the rim.

Have NOT measured any of the modern brass rims, however. I do know that Bertram .50-70 brass has a smaller rim than the Dixie, and doesn't require turning the rim to feed through the '60 carbine.

Hope that is of some interest!

Your obdt servant,