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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  CAS TOPICS  |  The Darksider's Den  |  The Dark Arts (Moderator: Lucky Irish Tom)  |  Topic: Correcting an arbor fit issue on my 1851 Colt Navy. 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Correcting an arbor fit issue on my 1851 Colt Navy.  (Read 52909 times)
RollingThunder
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« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2009, 12:32:25 pm »

PDF (Portable Document Format) allows the embedding of any vector or raster based file. Vector means that a line is drawn between a set of coordinates in a file. Once the line is completed (as in a square, etc.), you can fill the bounded area with a color, a gradient, a masked raster/picture image (that's how we get textures on 3D images). Raster means the same line is drawn with a one-pixel square, colored box. 

When you expand a vector illustration, because it is drawing coordinates and lines and filling them usually with a solid color or gradient, you lose no edge clarity.

When you expand a raster image, you will lose edge clarity because a pixel does not adjust to the view-size, and the more you zoom in on it, the larger it will appear, until you end up with a bunch of little squares where there should be a smooth straight line.
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« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2009, 12:09:53 pm »

Rolling Thunder, I tried to answer your question in some detail over there at the Open Range. There's more to bottoming an arbor than gets mentioned here. There's the cylinder gao to attend to and that may result in the barrel being set back and maybe the arbors slot being welded and a new wedge fit.
"Easier said than done", comes to mind here. You can open Pandoras Box here bottoming an arbor espesially with a gun that really wasn't machined with good tolerances to begin with.
The quick fix isn't Epoxy in my opinion. Guns are steel and should be fixed with steel or some other metal.
Shims can be made from shimstock bought from machine shop supply houses. MSC is one. Shims for cap&ballers can come from an old pie pan too. The kind I lke are copper from that craft thing where people punch holes in a sheet of copper to make a picture. Nice sheets of copper.
The shims of copper or aluminum usually fit unless the space is just too small and a regular shim "so many .001's thick" is bought from a supply house.
The softer than steel shims(steel shims can be used too) let them form fit when they are made a little too tight for the space of the hole. A simple matter of cutting the shim with scissors and the wider it is the tighter in the hole and the thinner it's cut the more loose. The shim goes on top the arbor above the wedge slot. Held with a small screw driver while the barrel is inserted so the shim goes in with the arbor. making the shim a little tight and using a rubber hammer to tap the barrel on form fits the shim of softer than steel material so there's a perfect fit.
It's easy to do once you get the hang of it.
The arbor being "tight" in the arbor hole is as good,I say better, of a mechanical fit than a bottomed arbor. If you think about it from a mechanical point of view you can see why.
Anywhoooo....go to the Open Range and see what I took the time to type with my two fingers. It explains some of the aspects of bottoming an arbor that usually aren't mentioned when people try to explain the methods they use. The cylinder gap and the resulting fit issues with the barrel,wedge,arbor slot ect.ect. are mentioned in what I tried to explain.
People explain bottoming arbors and leave the details of the resulting issues that can come up out probably because of the typing amount and the complexity of trying to explain the issues.
Think....you bottom the arbor real nice....then the cylinder gap is real wide. What now?  ha ha ha  Grin
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Mako
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« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2009, 01:13:28 am »

Rifle,
I’ve read your post three times over a three day period hoping it would make more sense to me if I let it sit for a while.  I’ll tell you I must be a bit slow, but I don’t know what the difference would be between adding a filler material of weldment or even epoxy or a shim.  I guess shims are easier and more easily reversible, but they are also easily lost.   Even went and read your post on The Open Range Forum.  I then realized you were talking about side shims… I think you’re making this way too complicated.  If you have an open top revolver that can have the cylinder gap set to the correct cylinder gap without having to drive in a wedge with a hammer (meaning hard blows, not light tapping), then you have the ability to take up the space between the arbor and the hole end.

The statement that had me buffaloed is this one
Quote
“There's more to bottoming an arbor than gets mentioned here. There's the cylinder gao(sic) to attend to and that may result in the barrel being set back and maybe the arbors slot being welded and a new wedge fit.”
  Why would you do anything to change the cylinder gap if you can currently insert the wedge and already have your gap the width you want it?  The whole point is to put material in an area where there isn’t any, not change your barrel gap.  The material added to the arbor is to add a hard stop to give you a consistent barrel/cylinder gap and to prevent movement that wears the arbor, barrel, wedge fit out.  If you add more than the gap between the end of the arbor and hole in the barrel underlug then you would change the spacing out.  If you add less then there would be no effect. 

Slip your barrel without a wedge on the arbor (with or without the cylinder) and then look through the wedge slot perpendicular to the bore axis you should see the front of the Arbor Slot sticking back into the Barrel Slot.  This means the Wedge will engage on the front edge of the Arbor Slot and the back edge of the Barrel Slot.  If it were the other way around you could never pull the barrel tight, there would also be a gap where the frame meets the barrel underlug. If you had the cylinder in place you could use feeler gages to determine your cylinder gap without the wedge.  I read your recommendation of an “ideal” .006” gap on the Open Range post, I disagree with that…  That number is for smokeless powder revolvers.  I actually set my BP percussion pistols between .010” and .012”.  The Colt shop manual for SAAs specifies .008” as ideal and that is for smokeless powder revolvers.  The “perfect” fit CAS percussion revolver for me would gage .013” without a wedge and .011” with one in place (that is with a modified arbor on a Uberti or a better fitting Pietta).

You can easily determine how much space you have between the end of the arbor and the bottom of the hole in the underlug.  You put the barrel on the arbor, but instead of lining it up you rotate it to either the right or left of the end of the frame then measure the amount the barrel underlug goes past the end of the frame.  That is the amount of material whether it be shims, weldment  or anything else needed to be added to take up the space.

Why would that change your cylinder gap?  If your barrel gap was .012-014” without a wedge it couldn’t close up less than .010” with the wedge in place.  That’s what the material on the end of the arbor does, it sets the minimum gap.  It better NOT widen your gap, because that would only happen if your wedge slot was already off, the barrel would already be pushed forward.  If the wedge pushed the barrel out in the slot you would open up a gap between the frame and the barrel lug which would be very obvious.  If you start with a gap greater than .014” and collapse it more than .004” then you have a problem with your lug to frame contact, meaning your barrel extension at the rear is too short.  This happens sometimes because someone tried to correct a non-square barrel to cylinder gap.  This is almost always caused by a poorly fit barrel and someone who doesn’t understand the barrel, cylinder, wedge and frame fit relations.  They go after the back of the barrel with a file.  If they had just not hammered the wedge and fit it to allow a square engagement  it would probably have been the correct length.

Adding shims to the sides of the arbor as you have described is just wedging material in the clearance between the sides of the arbor and the hole (not the end) to wedge it a second time.  So now you are just wedging the barrel between the wedge and the shims you have added.  As you said they loosen up and as soon as you remove the barrel for cleaning you may or may not get it all back.

My wedges are set so that I press them out (not even tapped or hit) with a wooden stick and then when replacing them I lay the Starboard side of the barrel slot on a softy pine board I carry in my loading box (or the bench) and push then tap the wedge with a small stick of wood (½ X 1 X 6 inches) until it bottoms out on the wood.  This leaves the wedge spring hook barely engaged (which is how I run my wedges).  But I set them to a consistent depth.  On my competition pistols with fit arbors, the wedge won’t go in any further than the hook (unless I took a hammer to it).

I have several pairs with modified arbors and more without.  If I am going to use them in competition I usually shoot then a bit then get my wedge engagement and cylinder gap correct.  I also watch for tight spots, make sure the cylinder is running square and without ratchet or back bearing surface problems.  Then weld up the arbor and use a surface grinder to set it to length. I could also mill it or simply use a file held square.  If you do the Arbor first you might have to redo it after the cylinder is a fully regulated. 

You could do exactly the same thing with JB Weld or shims at the bottom of the arbor hole.  In fact someone who is doing it for the first time could make shims out of any light gage metal including cans and find the thickness that works before welding or adding JB Weld.  Then they would have a number to cut the added material to.  The problem with shims is getting the in between thicknesses.  Unless you are simply lucky or want to sand a shim thinner you would need a package of shim stock in various gages.  Remember what I said earlier, if it doesn’t  bottom out it serves no purpose.  It’s sort of like water, once it’s over your head it doesn’t matter if it’s 8 feet deep or 5,000 feet deep.  Once you are too tired to bounce off of the bottom you’re probably gonna drown.  A .002” gap with the wedge fully engaged isn’t really any different than a .200” gap (arguable, but for the sake of illustration please grant me that).

Regards,
Mako
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« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2009, 08:12:43 am »

Howdy Mako, I'll try to answer the question you seem to be asking about the arbor bottoming but specifically the cylinder gap area.  I think this part is misunderstood by many. The looseness in the arbor hole with the arbor in it seems to almost always be along the top of the arbor. When the barrel is drawn back by the wedge the bottom lug of the barrel stops at the frame but the top breech end of the barrel doesn't stop even with it. The breech of the barrel keeps going back closing the cylinder gap abiet unevenly. The gap gets closer at the top of it and wider at the bottom of it as you observe from the side seeing light come thrrough. That's because the force of the wedge has to go somewhere and the path of least resistance is anywhere there's space. The space is at the top of the arbor and is seen at the top of the barrels arbor hole. The barrel can't go anywhere at the bottom lug since there's no space there if the barrel is against the frame. So as the space is closed at the breech area with the barrel canting downward at the breech end and naturally upward at the muzzle end until the top of the barrels arbor hole right at the beginning cants downward until contact is made by the top of the barrels arbor hole at the very beginning with the top of the arbor. That contact point and the space there being closed up then the barrel stops moving. You know...like the barrel pivots at the frame/barrel point stressing the frame pins when those holes in the barrel take up any space that's there and the pins can flex some until the space at the top of the arbor hole at the beginning of the barrels arbor hole is closed and the barrel is in contact with the top of the arbor there. That rocking or canting of the barrel after the barrels bottom lug contacts the frame is the movement that eludes a lot of people.
The guns that have more space in the arbor hole than others also shoot higher than the others with less space. Also the guns with the most space in the arbor hole of the barrel when the arbor is in there have a cylinder gap wider at the bottom and naorrower at the top of it. Take Ubertis for example....the ones people say they have to set the cylinder gap with a feeler gauge at each assembly. Those have more space at the top of the arbor hole and they can more easily have the wedge force close the gap and pinch the cylinder and stop it from moving. The Piettas then....have a more snug arbor hole for the arbor to fit in and the minimal space is taken up and the top of the barrels arbor hole at the very beginning males contact with the top of the arbor and the barrel stops moving much sooner. It isn't only the bottomed arbor the Piettas have that sets the barrels rock solid and the wedges stop with a certain authority that can't be mistaken.When the wedge is driven into a Pietta Colt(the ones that are right from the factory) it goes so far and stops rock solid and it's real easy to tell it aon't going any further...doesn't cant enough to notice and doesn't pinch the cylinder and the cylinder gap is uniforn at the top of it and the bottom of it(at least uniforn enough it would be difficult to measure with a feeler gauge).
Anyway if a person doesn't realize the barrel is drawn back by the wedge with that tightening the barrel/frame contact but the breech part still moves until the top of the arbor hole space closes until the barrel at the top of that hole contacts the top of the arbor then it's difficult to fully understand the fit of a Colt type gun with a wedge and all. If a person doesn't realize there's movement by the barrel after the barrels bottom lug meets the frame they don't have the full picture. It's easy to miss I guess.
Take a Uberti since they are good examples......set the barrel on and push it rearward as far as you can....put pressure on the barrel as if you were trying to bend the barrel muzzle upwards and watch the space between the breech and the cylinder and the space between the top of the arbor hole in the barrel and the top of the arbor. When the wedge is out and you can move it by hand you can see it plain as day. If you can't believe the barrel cants upward at the muzzle and downward at the breech after the barrels bottom lug meets the frame then you won't ever see what's being discussed here.
You mentioned shim...and interprete myself talking about "side shims". No side shims. That would be kid of difficult with the wedge in there and all. I mention that a shim layed on the "top" of the arbor" and inserted with the arbor into the barrels arbor hole takes up the space there and seats the barrel much better and locks it better and the gun shoots less high ect.ect. Belgian Centenniasls and Piettas are examples. The Piettas or Centaure Centennials don't shoot as high out of the box as a Uberti(at least the older Ubertis since I can't talk about the newer ones I haven't seensince Beretta runs the show) because they have the arbor bottoms in the barrels hole and, in some cases also have a snug fit of the arbor in the barrels arbor hole. Optimum is a snug tap on or push on fit of the barrel on the arbor.
Mechanically speaking..if a barrel has a nice snug fit onto the arbor with "no space" in the hole,or very minimal, that is actually a better fitting than a bottomed arbor in the barrels hole. If a barrel is quite snug on the arbor with it's contact points being at the frame/barrel point and along the length of the arbor there's no where for the barrel to go once it stops at the frame/barrel point. It stops rock solid with no canting of the muzzle upwards and the breech downward.  Mechanically speaking the arbor real nice and snug in the barrels arbor hole is better than just a bottomed arbor with space between the top of the arbor and the barrel. Why?  Even with a bottomed arbor where the end of the arbor is perpendicular with the axis of the arbor and the bottom of the barrels hole is perpendicular with the axis of the barrel the barrel will still find a way to rock on the frame where the pins are until the space between the top of the arbor and the beginning of the hole is closed. It will at least stress the frame pins or let the pins move in the barrels holes or deform the pins ect.ect. untill the space between the arbor and the beginning of the barrels arbor hole is closed.
Anbywhooo......once it's all seen it becomes vdry simple. Like....crap...why didn't I see that before?   Embarrassed  Even pro gunsmiths that are familiar with all types of complicated shooting machines can miss parts of the fitting of a barrel onto an Open Top Colt.
Anyway....if you put your barrel on your Colt and leave the wedge out and play with it and kind of move things around you'll see what I mean.
You will see that the perfect fit would be a very snug fit of the arbor in the barrels hole and a bottomed arbor in the hole See that the less space there is in the arbor holw when the arbor's in it the better and the bottomed arbor is only part of the fix. The space above the arbor being closed is as important as a bottomed arbor or maybe more so. The bottomed arbor is great but...without the minimum space between the arbor and the barrels hole the bottomed arbor is incomplete.
Anywhoooo.....so can see that the barrel still moves after the barrel meets the frame when the's a loose arbor hole.
Cylinder gap? I like to set those at .006-7 but sometimes .010 even. It's an opinion thing I guess as to what the optimum cylinder gap is. It matters what you do with the gun..Cowboy Shooting versas target shooting as an example. It depends on the gun too. I like the .006 but I gunsmith the guns for optimum accuracy which is just where my head is I guess. If I do a gun for someone and they are going to shoot "Cowboy Shooting" I'd be more apt to ask if they want a wider cylinder gap. A wider gap makes the standard diviations go up more.
Anyway....the shim of a softer than steel material(metal) is an easy fix. No need to bottom the arbor and all. Just get a shim in tight where you tap the barrel on with a rubber hammer(at least till the shim loosens up some which they do and need changed every so often after so many hundreds of balls fired. Maybe every 1,000 or 2,000 balls.) to form fit it. You know an aluminum or copper shim. If the shim is steel it will last a very long time but it has to be exactly the right thickness right off the bat.
It's actually better the go beyond the shim thing where the shim is cut with a pair of scissors and all and......
Put a dab of weld in two spots on the arbor. One where it wuld be just inside the beginning of the barrels arbor hole and the other neat the end of the arbor. File fit them to where the barrel goes on but goes on pretty snug. That is better than a shim that may get "lost" as you mentioned.
The dabs of weld on the arbor?........they can be used to get a gun shooting center instead of left or right or high or low to a certain degree  ect.ect. also.
Anywhoo....epoxy type stuff to fill the space where the arbor doesn't bottom?Huh There's such a tremendous force emmitted by a wedge that it would crush the JB Weld or compress the epoxy. Wedges emitt a very large amount of force.  The end of the arbor needs to be steel or it will just not do what a bottomed arbor does....stop the barrel rock solid.......if the bottom of the arbor hole is perpendicular with the barrels axis and the end of the arbor is perpendicular with the axis of the arbor then the bottomed arbor helps the barrel be mounted straight and more solid and have less movement when the gun fires.
Movementwhen the gun fires? Yep but I ain't got the energy to type about that. Cheesy  Lets just say that the frame pins fit in the barrel holes and the wedges  "fit" side to side and"top and bottom" are important to eliminate parts movement when the gun fires and important to optimum accuracy.
If a Colt gun is constructed or machined or fit together real well and proper it can shoot as accurately as any Remington cap&baller. Could be used as a target gun against Remingtons and Rodgers and Spencers ect.ect.
What you say?  That guy is freekin nuts?    Grin 
One thing..... 
Just remember I told ya......the optimum fit of a Colts barrel has no space in the arbor hole and the arbor is bottomed in the hole.
Before I go........someone mentioned that they bevel the end of the arbor to fit better because the bottom of the hole is concave. Not good to do. The part of the end of the arbor that does the best bottoming job is the outside edge of the arbors end. The outside edge of the end of the arbor contacts the outside edge of the bottom of the hole. It's better to leave the end of the arbor as wide as it can be to contact the bottom of the hole as wide as it can. The bottom of the hole....around the outside of the circle or the "corner" is where the contact should be. Maybe the very small edge of the arbor gets beveled when it's a tight fit in the hole if the "corner" around the bottom of the hole has a slight radius to it and not a perfect 90 degree corner. Anyway the contact point is or has to be right arounf the edge of the arbor and the edge or corner of the hole where the hole very begins. The contct can go inward further from the edge or corner naturally. Some guns have the edge of the hole reamed at a 90 degree angle with the wall of the hole and that makes a step around the circumference of the hole for the arbor with an end perpendicular to the arbor to sit on. The center part of the hole can still be concave though.
Some guns have the bottom of the arbor hole reamed where the bottom is all flat and perpendicular to the walls of the hole. Anyway...don't bevel the end of the arbor unless it's to let it fit better where the bottom of the holes corner has a slight radius to it.
The in-between shim thickness? If it is a problem then the end of the arbor can be filed a little. The shims if there's only one that you want in the hole and it's a little thick can be stoned down some.
There's nothing wrong with a shim in the hole. I wouldn't want to mess with several shims in the hole though. Anyway..the shim can be fit to the circumference of the hole so that it stays in and doesn't fall out or get lost. It can be made to fall out too if that's what a person wants.
I think if a person uses the method of pressing the wedge in my hand or by a wood dowel and leaving it like that then the wedge is too loose. The barrel would go forward with the first shots and tighten against the wedge but the gap would get a little bigger and the wedge may loosen upon firing multiple shots. The wedge tapped with a small hammer handle or block of hardwood can seast the wedge with the correct tightness so the wedge stays there right where it's set to.
We all have our different and personal methods of doing things. Some are "right" enough and some are "right on". If a person is satisfied with their proceedures then that's all that matters as long as the gun shoots good enough for them.
Welds spots on the arbor and "wedging" the arbor between them? That's the idea. That's what the walls of the arbor hole does if the arbor fits right and is snug.  Like in D. Chicoine's book,"Gunsmithing Guns of the Old West", he mentions that a snug push fit of the arbor into the arbor hole is a good thing.
Rotating the barrel on the arbor like is shown to see what type of bottoming space there is is a good thing. I post that from time to time for people. There's a little draw back though to that and that can't be used for a precise way to measure the amoung of bottoming needed. It's the looseness of the barrel on the arbor that causes a problem. You can move the barrel on the arbor and get two different measurements. The looseness of the arbor in the holes hole again........
You need a method that's more precise like using Prussian Blue(from Brownells)  on the end of the arbor to tell when it's bottoming with too much space between the frame and barrel. Then stone the shim till the barrel comes to within a .001 or .002 of the frame. The .001-2 leaves room for "seat in" that accures when the arbor slot end or the barrels bottom of the hole compress from the wedge insetrtion and the force the wedge emmits. Shooting the gun can deform the end of the arbor a little after awhile too so the .001-2 is like a backup.  Anyway the best way I've founf to bottom an arbor whether it be the actual end of a new arbor of a shim in the space is to get it close using Prussian Blue machinists ink (used like intetting blackening when working on wood) and seeing the gap between the barel and frame and then stoning the shim. Notice I'm saying shim and not shims. I like to end up with one shim in the hole so it can be tacked welded to the end if I want. It's cool to add material with welding and work that so when done the shim is actually the end of the arbor.  Also...using the machists ink you can see if the whole arbor end ,or the full circumference of the edge of the arbor,is in contact with the bottom of the hole and if not stone the end so it is in better contact(before the barrel reaches the .001-002 space between the barrel and frame). A softer steel shim used in the hole can be left a tad wide and the barrel wacked with a rubber hammer to sest the shim. If not that then when the wedge sests the barrel and the wedge emitts it's great force the shim will flow in where there's any space and the entire end of the arbor will be in contact.
Anyway...if you're going to build a "race" Colt then the first thing is to have a machinist make an arbor that fits with no space in the "reamed uniform" barrels arbor hole. Then go from there. Make a wedge that is in contact with the barrels slot and the arbors slot that should be perfectly even with each other side to side and "top and bottom". That "top and bottom" keeps the barrel from rotating on the arbor. The barrel will do that even if the wedge is really really tight. The whole barrel and wedge can rotate up and down on the arbor. Put the barrel in a vise and grab the grip and rotate side to side. The barrel usually moves on the arbor as does the wedge in the slots. That space has to be taken up so the barrel can't move on firing and bounce side to side and wear the wedge and stress the arbor and change the point of impact of the balls on the target. People have a hard time imagining the barrel held on with a tight wede moving but it does every time the gun fires if there's any space to the fit of the pars at all. Then the flexibility of the arbor and the steel parts(stele has memory)is the only movement which can't be helped unless the parts are re-made of very hard ordanance grade steel to minimize the movement.
Now I'm done I guess. Hope this helps someone so all this typing is not for nothing. Mako...if I didn't answer your questions then let me know which ones I didn't answer.
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« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2009, 11:16:36 am »

In other words, if in the original non-bottomed fit, there is slop around the arbor (not on the arbor tip, but around the arbor), the barrel can still move up or down, and that of course changes the cylinder gap as it pivots on the bottom frame lugs. Pivoting on the lugs could move the barrel fore or aft from the cylinder. That movement (if any) is further affected by the wedge re-aligning the holes of the arbor and the barrel assembly. Any slop in the fitting of the barrel wedge assembly through poor machining, wear etc., means that even as the wedge sets the final angle of the barrel, there could still be additional rise or drop to the barrel, meaning you shoot high or low.

Once that is corrected with shims, and the barrel is now on the same angle as the cylinder, and shooting straight, there may have been a change in the cylinder gap. Using the example of a barrel that shoots high, the barrel that now shoots level has been moved forward, and away from the cylinder. The hand's pressure may not be significant enough to take up the slop and set the cylinder forward enough for an acceptable gap (an acceptable gap also being up for discussion, I assume).

If we further speculate, and say the new cylinder gap is unacceptable, then you also run the risk of, after increasing hand pressure to push the cylinder forward, changing the throw distance of the hammer, because the cylinder is now being pressed more forward, even ever-so slightly, and the hammer may be bottomed out to hit at a certain distance, to give the pistol a correct ignition on the cap.

Does that sound right?
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« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2009, 06:03:42 am »

Interesting topic. I had arbor issues with an Uberti '51 I bought a few years back that I converted to .38LC about a year ago.

When I bought the '51, it had a bent arbor, bent down at the slot. The previous owner, or whoever bent it, then proceeded to file the end of the arbor until the cylinder would just go on with force. Of course the barrel flopped around and it was a mess.

I got a new arbor and fitted it to the frame. BTW, the original arbor was NOT pinned and there was no hole for a pin so this is one Uberti that came from the factory w/o a pinned arbor. It was manufactured in 1992. I drilled a 3/32 pin hole when it was fit properly and pinned it.

Anyway, the new arbor was too short and, just like in the photo Rolling Thunder had at the beginning of this thread, my barrel went past the frame. I tried shims but didn't care for the way they flew around the shop floor when I removed the barrel for cleaning. So I drilled and tapped an 8-32 hole in the end of the arbor about 3/16" deep. I then fit a lock bolt for a m/l with a head diameter same size as the arbor so it extended the arbor about 3/16" and filed it to the proper length for good barrel fit. Stays put, works great.


L.O.
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RollingThunder
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« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2009, 11:11:55 am »

Did you experience any of the arbor slop that rifle mentioned in his post?
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« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2009, 12:47:08 pm »

Not to butt in but do you get the Cowboy Chronicle? Larson Pettifogger has in this months edition a couple fixes for the Uberti arbor.
One had to do with the shortness and he shows how he installed a brass end for his using the little pins that hold cases on the rotary table of a Dillon press. The other dealt with drilling, tapping for a set screw.
Obviously Larson is a machinist, but he uses everyday tools that can do the job. I find that very interesting, because I am not about to buy expensive machinist tools and I have the run of the mill common stuff around my shop.
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Howdy Doody
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« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2009, 12:58:49 pm »

Rolling Thunder,

The barrel was a snug fit onto the new arbor.

L.O.
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« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2010, 09:50:56 am »

Been a while since anyone posted a newish reply here. I just came here for the first time probably out of curiosity to see what revelations may have been posted.  Grin
Someone mentioned the set screw and the Dillion button fix so I'll comment on that. Both methods are good fixes without having to be a journeyman machinist and mechanic. Good fer the common folk like most of us are. You know....us deprived people without a machine shop in the garage. Cry
Off hand though(I talk the way I shoot) I wouldn't recommend the set screw fix as a first choice. Out of the two fixes I'd go for the brass button from the Dillion press method since that makes a full area on the end of the arbor. The full size on the end of the arbor would lay in the bottom of the barrels hole and supply more stability for the barrel than a set screw.
The brass button end would be good but need to be checked for deformation after awhile. Sooner than if a steel end was put on the arbor to bottom in the barrels hole. Once the wedge was "set in all the way" for awhile I'd think about renewing the brass button so the wedge can then again get the barrel tight. That would be easier than making a new wedge.
I'd go for the "lock screw" method mentioned. Steel would seat in and make a nice fit as long as the barrel was bottomed on the arbor with a coupla .001's in. space left between the barrels lug and the frame where the pins are. It would be a good idea to leave a coupla .001's space between the barrel and frame when using the brass button arbor end too. Maybe even a few .001's in space. The parts seat in under the stress the wedge puts on the parts. The wedge can really push the end of the arbor into the bottom of the barrels hole. Wedges can make some pressure fer sure.
The parts like the new end of the arbor and the bottom of the arbor hole "mate" or seat in" under the stress the wedge makes. Under the stress of firing the gun too. It's almost impossible to mate the end of an arbor into the shape of the bottom of the hole right off the bat. Maybe if the end of the arbor was trued on a lathe and the bottom of the barrels hole was trued with a bottom cut end mill on a milling machine. Even then there would be a little "seat in". Seat in is a good thing if you use it right. Account for the seating in by leaving a coupla .001's space between the frame and barrel lug.
I've used Prussian Blue machinists ink to put on the end of the arbor to see where the end seats to the bottom of the barrels hole. To see and get a full flush mating of the arbor end to the bottom of the hole. Hopefully the bottom of the hole isn't too irregular.You know,like the hole's bottom  not being perpendicular to the center line of the barrel. Or the bottom of the hole having those drill rings protruding off the bottom. The arbor then bottoming on those protruding drill rings. Often the holes have a concave bottom too. Concave is alright though as long as you know it and bottom the arbors end well all around the circumference of the barrels hole bottom. You could get fancy and shape the end of the arbor to fit a concave hole bottom but it ain't worth the trouble.
Anyway with the blue ink on the end of the arbor you can put the gun together with the wedge and all and then take the barrel off and look in the hole and where the ink is transmitted to the barrels hole bottom is where the arbor is touching the bottom of the hole. If you see it touches in just a small area that's like a high spot so you file the arbors end a little and then ink the arbors end and check the fit. over and over and over till there is ink on a full circle at the bottom of the hole. Funny...inletting something lke that. First you look for color and that's a high spot to remove and the more you remove the more the bottom will show ink. Every time you remove a high spot that will get bigger and bigger from removing high spots finally the whole bottom circle will show full ink and that means the end of the arbor is mated to the bottom of the hole. Then........
Once the whole bottom shows ink you start putting the wedge in the gun all the way and tight and watch for the ink to be squished out of where the two parts mate and crush together. You want to see a lot of area where the ink is squished away from ther parts going together real tight. You can see in the hole with a little flash light. It can be a tedious process getting an arbor end flush to the bottom  of a hole. Flush is what is best. Just a part of the arbors end hitting bottom isn't good enough to make full use of a bottomed arbor. The optimum is the full face of the end of the arbor mate with the full face of the bottom of the barrels hole. In the case of a concave bottom to the hole the full circumference of the arbors end arounf the edge should hit the full outside edge of the bottom of the barrels hole.
Side note......all this arbor bottoming can be eliminated with one small shim placed and fit properly. One small shim cut with scissors and laid on top of the arbor atop the area where the wedge slot is. The wider the shim the tighter it will fit. Trial and error gets it right. Put the shim on the end top of the arbor....slide the barrel on using a small screw driver to keep the shim from sliding backwards and not staying in the space between the top of the arbor and the top of the barrels arbor hole. When there's "no space" between the arbor and the interior of the barrels arbor hole the barrel can't move around even before it's set on the frame pins. When on the pins the barrel cannot move at all. That means no slack to help the barrel try to move and deform the wedge ect.ect. The principal? When there is a perfect fit of the arbor in the barrels arbor hole that "is" optimum and there's no need for a bottomed arbor. No space in the arbor hole when the barrels in there is the best way for a barrel to fit. Using a shim material of copper or aluminum(pie pan) where the shim is soft,so to speak,lets the shim form fit in the space between the arbor and the barrels hole. The shim always goes on the top of the arbor. In rare cases the shim can be put on the bottom. Using a rubber hammer the barrel can be tapped on the arbor with the shim going in tight so it can "form fit" in the space. Trial and error will teach you the right width to make the shim. Of course there has to be a space there between the arbor and the barrels hole or a shim can't go in. It wouldn't be needed. Sometimes a shim of a coupla .001's is used when the space is really small. Another side note....with no other problems to the Colt pistol, when the shim is placed properly, the Colt can shoot right up with the Remington in the accuracy department. You can make a Colt to take 1st place in a target shoot where you'd be shooting against the venerable Remington type revolver cap&baller. It's all in the fact that the barrel is already tight to the frame in a Remington and the Colt isn't as tight with the barrel to the frame. Make the barrel of the Colt Open Top tight to the frame and then the Colt and the Remington will be,at least, equals. Probably the fit and balance of the Colt would edge it over the top and let it win a target shoot against a Remington that doesn't point as naturally as the Colt. What is the parable of this story? The meaning is.....if the arbor of the Colt is a tight fit in the barrels hole it will shoot better and stay together better and be more accurate. As an example I'd sight my Uberti Navy Colt. A new barrel and cylinderr combo I just happened upon proves my point. The arbor is a tight twist and turn fit in the barrels hole. The barrel doesn't move at all even when the wedge is not in yet. To make matters even better the groove diameter of the barrel is .366 inch and the chambers are .369 inch.   That is a good combo and that gun shoots as accurately as any revolver I've ever shot. I'd have to add that I use lube pills on the powder and under the balls to keep the chambers and barrel clean enough to keep shooting accurately and keep the cylinder turning. Anywhoooo.......
Anywhoooo.....if a person used the brass button on the end of the arbor the brass would seat in faster than the lock screw type end made of steel. (Side note......a lock screw just is a screw used for muzzleloading rifles that has a nice big head that can be shaped to match the end of the arbor and the threaded shaft part is skinny. Dixie Gun Works or Track of the Wolf sell those. Just get one that has a head diameter a little biger than the end diameter of the arbor so you can shape with a file and mate the new end perfectly to the shape of the arbor)
The brass button end would work harden,like brass does, after some seating in. The steel lock screw type end would be able to be annealed and then after it's "seating in" it could then be hardened with Kasinet case hardening compound. Kasinet is easy to use. Bury the screw head in a bed of Kasinet and put a propane touch to it and keep the part red hot for a half an hour. That would put a good case hardening to the screw head arbor end part you made.
Anywhoooo......any flat piece of steel can be layed on the end of the arbor and wire welded to the end. Just make a hole in the steel plate and weld in that hole on the end of the arbor. After welding then file the piece to match the arbor around it's diameter. Welding with the mig welder gets the end of the arbor red hot and thus may soften it some. On the other hand the lock screw threaded into the end of the arbor can weaken the end where the wedge emmits pressure really hard. I guess optimum would be to weld the end of the arbor and shape that or weld a piece of steel plate with a hole in it to the end of the arbor and then just re-case harden the whole dang frome since you can't just harden the end of the arbor. You could do that but the arbor may be weakened where the heat from getting the end of the arbor red hot and quenching it ended.
I've never had any trouble welding the end of an arbor or welding the steel plate with a hole in it to the end of the arbor though. I just feel as I should mention what has to be mentioned to do the job exactly the "right-ist way".  Roll Eyes
Putting a new case hardening to the whole frame after welding or whatever on the arbor isn't really too difficult. It's kinda cool to have "the real" pack hardening on your frame anyway. If I can do it anyone can. Wink
Anyway....that would be a cool posting to have in here. An explaination on how to pack harden parts the real way....after working on the end of your arbor. Grin  Is there a posting already on the ,"real pack hardening"?
Please excuse any typing errors. I hit two keys at once somet9imes.
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