Javascript DHTML Drop Down Menu Powered by dhtml-menu-builder.com
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 17, 2017, 12:38:03 am

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
* Home FlashChat Help Calendar Login Register
Currently there are 0 Users in the Cas City Chat Rooms!
Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  SCORRS (Moderator: Bull Schmitt)  |  Topic: Heel Base Loading/Sizing Tutorial 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Heel Base Loading/Sizing Tutorial  (Read 13541 times)
Hoof Hearted
Cartridge Conversion Specialist
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714


I run the Mustache Militia.....


WWW
« on: January 19, 2009, 12:04:36 am »


This is so much easier than most people think, so don't panic    Wink

There is a growing contingent of shooters exploring the Cartridge Conversion Revolver. The 44 "Army" sized pistols support the use of 45 calibre Center Fire ammunition as well as 44 Colt in either Heel Base or Hollow Base. The 36 "Navy" sized pistols need 38 Colt ammunition loaded with either Heel Base or Hollow Base bullets (I have pioneered 41 Colt also in these utilizing .386 inside lubed bullets).

If you are one of this "new" contingent, this tutorial will help you understand how to feed your need.

While this shows 38 caliber (.380) projectiles for the 36 caliber cap and ball conversion the method is the same for 44 heel base loading (which actually uses .452 to .454 sized bullets).

I'm sure most of you know that a 36 cap and ball revolver has a bore of between .375 and.380 (measured OD at the widest point of rifling). Originally conversions used the supplied cylinder, which was bored through at the nipple end, (chambers of .380) and the case OD was designed to fit in that (this same OD is still used today in 38 special and 357 magnum). But modern cartridges use inside lubed bullets because the bore size is the inside dimension of the 38 case (approx. .356 to .358). Seeing that the first designs had to work around the existing cylinder and barrel dimensions they used outside lubed bullets of the same OD as the case.

While many people try to work around using heel base bullets by loading hollow base ones I choose to shoot the heel base and here is why:

#1. In my experience hollow base grouping is not adequate. There are a number of reasons why but mostly the store bought Speer wadcutters have too shallow of a hollow cavity causing erratic expansion which leads to flyers (holes way outside the rest of the group). This is because the long, non hollow, section of the bullet can (and does) "yaw" in the bore. The home cast ones like the Rapine, Lyman ond others have a longer hollow base and can be better but pressure is the key to expansion and many do not load them to high enough pressure or use too hard of an alloy. They are also tedious to cast (one at a time), the cull rate is very high (mould too hot or base plug too cold) and they really dont shoot any better than the Speers.

#2. Heel base is "correct", PERIOD CORRECT and accurate (which is correct) and they look really cool when eyeballed by your peers............

This is really pretty simple if you have a modicum of reloading experience and Old West Moulds is a one stop source for all the things you need (if you already cast and own reloading tools) so here goes:

Brass preparation is pretty straight forward:

First- Clean (I prefer tumbling)

Second- Resize This is easy as any correct sizer for the contemporary version of your case will work fine (44 special/mag for 44 Russian/Colt) and (38/357 for 38 long/short Colt). I have found that the 9mm carbide sizer is a tad tighter and works well.

Third- Bell case mouth. This can be tricky and may require some adjustment for case length, also you want a very MINIMUM flare (in fact you may be able to skip this step completely depending on the mould).

Fourth- Powder charge. Remember, no air space for black powder and always consult current loading data from prudent sources.

Fifth- Seat bullet. I find that most bullet types will seat by finger pressure. Meaning no die necessary. As mentioned above shortening or adjusting of dies here can be tricky (depends on die manfacturer). 9mm seater works well for problematic 38 short.

~If you dedicate a set of dies to the caliber you are loading, you may want to belt sand the expander and seater die shorter by the difference in case length. Then rechamfer the opening.~



This is a pic of Bernie's (Old West Moulds) crimp arrangement. This is very important. There is no better way to crimp a heel base bullet, period! He uses a modified Lee Collet Crimp die and a specially designed adjustable shell holder. It is inexpensive and worth ten times as much (just don't tell him)!

Sixth- Crimp as above.



This is a pic of Bernie's ingenious way to lube your "outside lubed" 19th century recreation!
It is so simple it makes you say, "wow, why didn't I think of that".
He uses the same Cherry that he cut your mould with to grind a new "ejector pin" for your lube sizer die that matches the ogive of the bullet. Along with a shell holder that replaces the "top punch" and you size and lube the loaded round upside down...........

Seventh- Lube and size.



Set up right you CAN load heelbased bullets almost (maybe just) as fast as "regular" or inside lubed bullets Grin

As a resource link:
www.oldwestbulletmoulds.com

New source of cast bullets (from Old West Moulds):
This should make some of yall's life easier (if you don't cast)

http://www.alphabravobullets.com/products/shop.php?exp=&cat=4

The above link is for cast, sized and lubed heel base bullets for the 38 Colt which is what you need for your Navy Conversions. He can provide bullets lubed for Smokeless or Black Powder and he also carries 44 Colt Heel Base Bullets. Just call and ask for John if you don't see it on their pages.

A ONE STOP SHOP for all things Conversion related:

http://www.cartridgeconversion.com/
Goodluck on ya Wink
HH
Logged

Anonymity breeds bravado.......especially over the internet!
http://cartridgeconversion.com
http://heelbasebullet.com
aka: Mayor Maynot KILLYA SASS #8038
STORM #400
Oldelm
Vietnam Vet 66-67
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 292



« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2009, 03:38:41 pm »

Howdy Hoof,
Thanks for posting this info,.....nice photos, very informative! I think I'll have to get one of those adjustable shell holders from Bernie so I can load the .44 Russian heel base. Grin
Logged
Hoof Hearted
Cartridge Conversion Specialist
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714


I run the Mustache Militia.....


WWW
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2011, 10:49:16 pm »

Back up to add an important link

Logged

Anonymity breeds bravado.......especially over the internet!
http://cartridgeconversion.com
http://heelbasebullet.com
aka: Mayor Maynot KILLYA SASS #8038
STORM #400
Hoof Hearted
Cartridge Conversion Specialist
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714


I run the Mustache Militia.....


WWW
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2012, 05:50:00 pm »

To the Top Grin
Logged

Anonymity breeds bravado.......especially over the internet!
http://cartridgeconversion.com
http://heelbasebullet.com
aka: Mayor Maynot KILLYA SASS #8038
STORM #400
Hoof Hearted
Cartridge Conversion Specialist
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714


I run the Mustache Militia.....


WWW
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2012, 09:38:27 am »

Logged

Anonymity breeds bravado.......especially over the internet!
http://cartridgeconversion.com
http://heelbasebullet.com
aka: Mayor Maynot KILLYA SASS #8038
STORM #400
Sir Charles deMouton-Black
THE ANCIENT SUBSTANCE ENDURES - ALL LESSER PROPELLANTS SHALL FIZZLE
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 5793



« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2012, 10:56:49 am »

Howdy Hoof,
Thanks for posting this info,.....nice photos, very informative! I think I'll have to get one of those adjustable shell holders from Bernie so I can load the .44 Russian heel base. Grin

Mine is ordered, and expected soon Grin Cool
Logged

NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
Hoof Hearted
Cartridge Conversion Specialist
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714


I run the Mustache Militia.....


WWW
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2012, 11:06:46 am »

Mine is ordered, and expected soon Grin Cool
Sir Charles......

Is your order pending with me or Bernie?
I sure don't wanna be holding you up Wink

Regards, HH
Logged

Anonymity breeds bravado.......especially over the internet!
http://cartridgeconversion.com
http://heelbasebullet.com
aka: Mayor Maynot KILLYA SASS #8038
STORM #400
Sir Charles deMouton-Black
THE ANCIENT SUBSTANCE ENDURES - ALL LESSER PROPELLANTS SHALL FIZZLE
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 5793



« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2012, 11:14:42 am »

Sir Charles......

Is your order pending with me or Bernie?
I sure don't wanna be holding you up Wink

Regards, HH

With Bernie.  Hope your nose is not out of joint.
Logged

NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
Hoof Hearted
Cartridge Conversion Specialist
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714


I run the Mustache Militia.....


WWW
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2012, 01:10:05 pm »

With Bernie.  Hope your nose is not out of joint.
Not at all (and I'm sorry you felt like that)!

My price is the same as Bernie's. I just carry them to help out my customers who do not use their CAS City handles when ordering.
I happen to have 4 different Old West moulds in stock and thought maybe there was a mix-up somewhere down the line...... Undecided

Have a GREAT day, Sir Charles!
Regards, HH
Logged

Anonymity breeds bravado.......especially over the internet!
http://cartridgeconversion.com
http://heelbasebullet.com
aka: Mayor Maynot KILLYA SASS #8038
STORM #400
Sir Charles deMouton-Black
THE ANCIENT SUBSTANCE ENDURES - ALL LESSER PROPELLANTS SHALL FIZZLE
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 5793



« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2012, 03:50:12 pm »

Hoof;  I didn't notice that you did sell those,but I should have. Shocked Embarrassed

Logged

NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
Sir Charles deMouton-Black
THE ANCIENT SUBSTANCE ENDURES - ALL LESSER PROPELLANTS SHALL FIZZLE
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 5793



« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2012, 01:37:10 pm »

With Bernie.  Hope your nose is not out of joint.

Received my collet crimper and shell holder in .41LC from Bernie.  I loaded up a cylinder full in no time flat.  The crimper seems to work just right, pending a shooting test.
Logged

NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
Hoof Hearted
Cartridge Conversion Specialist
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714


I run the Mustache Militia.....


WWW
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2013, 12:05:47 am »

Hope you have a "BLAST", Sir Charles  Wink
Logged

Anonymity breeds bravado.......especially over the internet!
http://cartridgeconversion.com
http://heelbasebullet.com
aka: Mayor Maynot KILLYA SASS #8038
STORM #400
Sir Charles deMouton-Black
THE ANCIENT SUBSTANCE ENDURES - ALL LESSER PROPELLANTS SHALL FIZZLE
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 5793



« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2013, 10:23:55 am »

Hope you have a "BLAST", Sir Charles  Wink

YUP, but except for trap shooting with family during Christmas I haven't been out for a few months.  In my defence I can disclose that my range is usually WITHIN a raincloud during the winter.  I have a bunch of ammo loaded up and will get to the range after I return from my snowbird holiday in St Louis MO.  I will report on my 1896 Colt frontier, originally 38-40, now 41LC.

Hahaha; Did I tell you about being locked in an Airbus for two hours in Salt Lake City during a snowstorm? First waiting to be de-iced, and then joining the conga-line waiting for a takeoff slot.  Now warming up here, but a week of freezing weather in Missouri.  Me, I prefer the gentle rain, flowers and game (Deer, squirrels, rabbits and racoons that surround my home in Victoria BC a true paradise on Earth)
Logged

NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
Hoof Hearted
Cartridge Conversion Specialist
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714


I run the Mustache Militia.....


WWW
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2013, 10:32:46 am »

MOVE TO TEXAS


The elected officials here actually are campaigning to New York residents that they are "welcome here and bring your guns".
That kinda worries me but as long as they stay in the city I guess I would be OK with it Roll Eyes


HH
Logged

Anonymity breeds bravado.......especially over the internet!
http://cartridgeconversion.com
http://heelbasebullet.com
aka: Mayor Maynot KILLYA SASS #8038
STORM #400
King Medallion
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 379



« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2013, 12:10:26 pm »

MOVE TO TEXAS


The elected officials here actually are campaigning to New York residents that they are "welcome here and bring your guns".
That kinda worries me but as long as they stay in the city I guess I would be OK with it Roll Eyes


HH
I'm from Illinois and would love to get out of here. My biggest worry is finding a job, especially at almost age 50, with just a high school diploma/education.
Logged
The Trinity Kid
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1416


These are some of my...Friends


« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2013, 03:18:55 pm »

I'd move down there Hoof, But it's too flat for me.
Logged

"James shook his head and twirled his Colt into it's holster with a smile.  There was some coffee left in the pot, so he poured it in his cup and leaned against the wall by the door.  The sun was setting in the distance, creating a beautiful sunset. 
   “Texas has better sunsets.”  He heard Terri say next to him.  He turned to face her.
   “Of course it does.  But we gotta get what we can in the mean time.” He said with a lopsided grin.  She smiled back and pulled her Colt, stuffing the barrel into his belly.
   “Yer' getting slow.  Better work on that.”  She said and walked back into the house with the empty coffee pot. 
   “We saw that, y' know.”  Clint Rounds said laughing.   James turned red and tried to hide his embarrassment."   Excerpt fromTHE FLOPPY HAT FROM TEXAS," being written by yours truly.



   I was told recently that I'm "livelier than a one-legged man at a butt-kicking contest."    Is that an insult or a compliment?
wildman1
American Plainsmen Society
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2548



« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2013, 08:25:21 am »

Hay TC thats like sayin the desert is "brown".  Tongue WM
Logged

WARTHOG, Dirty Rat #600, BOLD #1056, CGCS,GCSAA, NMLRA, NRA, AF&AM, CBBRC.  If all that cowboy has ever seen is a stockdam, he ain't gonna believe ya when ya tell him about whales.
Sir Charles deMouton-Black
THE ANCIENT SUBSTANCE ENDURES - ALL LESSER PROPELLANTS SHALL FIZZLE
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 5793



« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2013, 10:31:56 am »

Back on the wet coast now, but staying with the grandgirls for a bit.
Logged

NCOWS #1154, SCORRS, STORM, BROW, 1860 Henry, Dirty Rat 502, CHINOOK COUNTRY
THE SUBLYME & HOLY ORDER OF THE SOOT (SHOTS)
Those who are no longer ignorant of History may relive it,
without the Blood, Sweat, and Tears.
With apologies to George Santayana & W. S. Churchill

"As Mark Twain once put it, “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”
The Trinity Kid
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1416


These are some of my...Friends


« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2013, 08:25:12 pm »

Hay TC thats like sayin the desert is "brown".  Tongue WM

Wildman,  I know it is.  I live at 2,100 feet, so most of the U.S. is too flat.  My family is originally from Texas, so I would rather move there than anywhere else. Smiley

--TK
Logged

"James shook his head and twirled his Colt into it's holster with a smile.  There was some coffee left in the pot, so he poured it in his cup and leaned against the wall by the door.  The sun was setting in the distance, creating a beautiful sunset. 
   “Texas has better sunsets.”  He heard Terri say next to him.  He turned to face her.
   “Of course it does.  But we gotta get what we can in the mean time.” He said with a lopsided grin.  She smiled back and pulled her Colt, stuffing the barrel into his belly.
   “Yer' getting slow.  Better work on that.”  She said and walked back into the house with the empty coffee pot. 
   “We saw that, y' know.”  Clint Rounds said laughing.   James turned red and tried to hide his embarrassment."   Excerpt fromTHE FLOPPY HAT FROM TEXAS," being written by yours truly.



   I was told recently that I'm "livelier than a one-legged man at a butt-kicking contest."    Is that an insult or a compliment?
rbertalotto
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1105


WWW
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2014, 06:41:05 am »

I gotta get in gear and call HH about another conversion. Already have a pair of 1860s and a set of 1858s. I need a navy in 36/38.
Logged

Roy B
South of Boston
www.rvbprecision.com
SASS #93544
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  SCORRS (Moderator: Bull Schmitt)  |  Topic: Heel Base Loading/Sizing Tutorial « previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.077 seconds with 21 queries.