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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  GENERAL TOPICS  |  Tall Tales (Moderator: Silver Creek Slim)  |  Topic: Aircraft 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Aircraft  (Read 413869 times)
pony express
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« Reply #2550 on: January 14, 2015, 05:27:50 pm »

Yeah, once the Free French used up the stuff they had, all they got was everyone's castoffs. Their ground troops in Europe later on were mostly armed with US 1917 Enfields. I wouldn't be surprised if they got the P-40's after we upgraded to P-47s and P-51s.
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Mean Bob Mean
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« Reply #2551 on: January 26, 2015, 02:22:01 pm »

While all agreed that it wasn't a very good idea to dogfight a Zero with a P-40, I also recall reading from a P-40 pilot in North Africa/ Italy, that the situation was reversed when it came to P-40 vs Bf109s. His words were something like "109s should never try to turn with a P-40." But I think the 109s had advantages against the p-40 in other areas, besides the fact that the main job in Europe became escorting bombers, and P-40s didn't have the range.

Actually, you don't mean "dogfight" because there are several moves in dogfighting, not all of which favor the Zero.  You mean "flat turn" which is the only real area that a Zeke outclassed US planes.  After the Thatch weave, it was all academic.  

The flat turn was used by novice pilots and those who panicked.  The Flying Tigers had an ungodly kill ratio against the Ki-43 Oscar which turns as flat or flatter than does the Zero.  They did so by using "dogfighting" tactics that favored their AC, namely Boom and Zoom.  Any US plane could leave a Zeke behind by diving, once the F6 hit the market, the game was completely rigged.  Note that when US researchers got their hands on an actual Zero they were appalled at what Junk it was.

The reason the Japanese aircraft had a great reputation was that Japanese pilots were absolutely fantastic at the start of the war and had a great deal of combat experience. 
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« Reply #2552 on: January 26, 2015, 06:53:21 pm »

The Zero's had a better rate of climb than our earlier fighters( 40's,39's, F-4-F's). If they could force our guys to climb, dead meat.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #2553 on: January 26, 2015, 06:59:40 pm »

The Hellcat was an equal to the Zero. The Hell cat had self sealing gas tanks and 6 50 cal machine guns.
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« Reply #2554 on: January 26, 2015, 08:17:19 pm »

A lot of dead Japanese pilots tried the climb bit with the F-6's mistaking them for the F-4's. took them quite a while to figure it wouldn't work Roll Eyes
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« Reply #2555 on: January 27, 2015, 07:54:00 am »

Apollo 1.

January 27, 1967.

Gus Grissom, Ed White, and Roger Chaffee. Rest in peace.
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« Reply #2556 on: January 27, 2015, 09:40:27 am »

In 1966, My Dad and I were at the Indy 500, we were going through the Museum. I noticed that Gus Grissom was standing next to my Dad. I whispered to my Dad that he was standing next to Gus. Dad knew he was one of the Mercury astronauts, but did not recognize him.
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« Reply #2557 on: January 27, 2015, 12:05:06 pm »

The Zero's had a better rate of climb than our earlier fighters( 40's,39's, F-4-F's). If they could force our guys to climb, dead meat.  Roll Eyes

That is correct, the Zero was better to about 9-10K as I recall, at higher altitudes it's performance suffered (including turn rate) so, depending on where you were I would tend to agree with you.  The Japanese as you recall were used to having air superiority and fighting at lower altitudes.  At higher altitudes it had no business fighting any US Iron made after 1940 excepting maybe the 39 which they stupidly stripped of its supercharger, even then at higher alts, likely no.  But again, a booming US plane had vastly superior airspeed (P-40B could dive at 480 or better, a Zeke tapped out 100 MPH less in a dive) and climb rate was negated much by that:  not all dogfights were fought from zero altitude up, as it were.  I would still posit that Pilot experience and years at the craft were the greatest factors in the early going.  Japan had a long training program and war experience, they had superb pilots early on.  After 1942, they had very, very few fully trained pilots and no training program to bring new pilots online at the same level of capability as new US pilots.  Also, the heavily armored US craft--even those you note in the early war--afforded a higher pilot survival rate so, again the US planes were superior.  So, essentially the Japanese had a better chance (maybe even odds) for a few months, maybe 9-12, and after that, they had "Zero" chance (pun intended).  

The great Japanese ace, Saburo Sakai, when asked how the Japanese could rationalize Kamikaze attacks said that sending the raw recruits up against F6Fs and F4Us etc., was in fact suicide and that it was simply logic, not delusional belief in the nation:  you are going to die, may as well take someone with you, it was plain odds for him, not militaristic zeal.  

It's a funny argument because the US had built a Naval plane and two US Army planes that could have out dogged the Zeke early on:  The F4F but they over armed and armored it.  The stripped, original specifications model flying as the FM2 was an awesome little fighter.  The Army craft were the original design of the P-39 with a supercharger and the P-38.  The 38 was unconventional and extremely expensive so it lost out but that plane could eat up just about anything in either theater in the right hands.  

Cheers friend
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« Reply #2558 on: January 27, 2015, 03:28:03 pm »

Agreed. I think the FM-2 had a higher horse power engine than the original F-4's as well. The FM-2's were well suited to ops off the jeep carriers Roll Eyes
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« Reply #2559 on: January 27, 2015, 07:56:49 pm »

The seasoned Japanese pilots were killed off in the major battles of Coral Sea and Midway, By the end of 43 and the first part of 44, all that were left were young and inexperienced in obsolete and poorly made newer planes. The Kamakizes were out of desperation, to destroy as many naval ships as possible, by crashing into ships. The young pilots were told that it was honor to die for the Emperor.
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« Reply #2560 on: January 28, 2015, 01:23:11 pm »

Agreed. I think the FM-2 had a higher horse power engine than the original F-4's as well. The FM-2's were well suited to ops off the jeep carriers Roll Eyes

Isn't that a neat legacy, those little carriers?  Ever been to NAS Pensacola?
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« Reply #2561 on: January 28, 2015, 01:23:57 pm »

The seasoned Japanese pilots were killed off in the major battles of Coral Sea and Midway, By the end of 43 and the first part of 44, all that were left were young and inexperienced in obsolete and poorly made newer planes. The Kamakizes were out of desperation, to destroy as many naval ships as possible, by crashing into ships. The young pilots were told that it was honor to die for the Emperor.

And we Americans was happy to oblige them sons of Nippon.
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« Reply #2562 on: January 28, 2015, 02:07:42 pm »

I was at the Naval air Museum  on the 75th Anniversary of Naval aviation. I really enjoyed the tour, unfortunately there many aircraft that were outside and deteriorating in the salt air. My wife has a girlfriend that is a daughter of one of the original "Black Sheep". Over the years, I have been able to tour several of the Military Air Museums in the US.
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« Reply #2563 on: January 28, 2015, 02:12:15 pm »

The Great Marianas Turkey shoot was a good example of the superiority of the Amarican pilots over the Japanese pilots in the latter stages of the War. After the Battle of Midway, the Japanese Naval aviation ceased to be much of a factor.
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« Reply #2564 on: January 28, 2015, 03:02:58 pm »

Hard to fly like an eagle when you're swimming with the fishes. The cream of Japan's aviators went down with those four carriers at Midway.The rest got ground up at Guadalcanal. After that, their carriers aviators were hardly trained like ours were. By the Turkey shoot, they were basically sitting ducks Roll Eyes
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« Reply #2565 on: January 28, 2015, 03:59:35 pm »

Hard to fly like an eagle when you're swimming with the fishes. The cream of Japan's aviators went down with those four carriers at Midway.The rest got ground up at Guadalcanal. After that, their carriers aviators were hardly trained like ours were. By the Turkey shoot, they were basically sitting ducks Roll Eyes

Yeah, I don't recall precisely but it seems to me that the rigid Japanese training program was like 2-3 years and they had no concept of rotating skilled pilots back to training positions unless the guy was shot to hell.  The US had a decent ace, they made him a trainer.  We had the numbers, and more importantly, a fluid way of thinking that was far more practical. 

I was always intrigued by Lindbergh's teaching of the P-38 pilots in long range flying so they could shoot down Yamamato. 
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« Reply #2566 on: January 29, 2015, 06:43:23 am »

There are rumors that he did actually fly some ops while doing it. Some say he actually shot one down Roll Eyes
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« Reply #2567 on: January 30, 2015, 03:28:03 am »

Lindbergh was a controversial man in his later years. "The Spirit of St. Louis" is one of my favorite movies. Lindbergh was truly "The Lone Eagle".
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