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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Winchester Model 1876 (Moderator: Grizzly Adams)  |  Topic: Comparing the Original 1876 with the Uberti 1876 - PICS 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Comparing the Original 1876 with the Uberti 1876 - PICS  (Read 52468 times)
john boy
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« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2007, 06:56:44 pm »

Quote
From what I read, the Chaparral is supposed to be the most "authentic" of the two, a least in respect to copying the original design internally.
Was talking with Nick Ecker about 'how the heck are they making any money with the Chaparral Warranty work'?  His reply was ... 'We are making a substantial amount of dollars selling replacement parts to owners of original '76's

Another item:
---   Chaparral has changed the retractor pin from the familiar straight sided one to a fluted pin that needs to be driven in.  Why?  Don't have a clue.
 
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« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2007, 08:29:05 pm »

Has anyone done a side by side with an original/Uberti/Chaparral to confirm which is the most authentic?

No one that I know of has done this - yet.  John Boy, this sounds like a good project for you! Wink
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« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2007, 08:45:31 pm »

+1 Smiley
+2 Grin
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john boy
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« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2007, 11:31:46 pm »

Grizzly - Yes, it would be a neat project but I do not own an original or a Uberti.  A possible method would be a volunteer that owns one of each and then an offline co-ordination for each to take specific pictures for each given part.  Then the pictures would be combined by one person - revisions if needed and then make a summary post.  I have a picture of all the internal parts for an original
ORI'll be the volunteer to act like the magazine writers do it:
One volunteer each, sends me an original and a Uberti - of course the rifles remain in my gun safe for my efforts.  I'll gladly pay shipping! Grin
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« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2007, 11:27:13 am »


I'll be the volunteer to act like the magazine writers do it:
One volunteer each, sends me an original and a Uberti - of course the rifles remain in my gun safe for my efforts.  I'll gladly pay shipping! Grin

Your a prince, John! Grin Grin
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« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2007, 06:52:58 pm »

Ok, time to see if I can get this back together! Huh

First, I wanted to mention the bolt face, and the cartridge lip or rim that seems to be missing on some of the Chaparral rifles.  This lip acts as a support for the bottom of the rim, and is part of the original design and it is very important to the proper function of the action.

Here are a couple of pics showing first the original and second the Uberti bolt from my rifle.  Notice the lip on the botton of the bolt face opposite the extractor.




After disassembly, I spent some time cleaning up after the boys in Italy. Wink  There were some burrs left over in this area, and I smoothed those up.  The worst was in the opening for the carrier arm.



Next I deburred and polished the carrier using a flat surface and a diamond steel plate.



The next step was to lighten up the carrier and lever springs a bit.  This is pretty commonly done on the 1873 to make them go quicker, but it is also important as the heavy springs will cause rapid wear on the lever cam.  By the way, it also happens with the originals.  Speed is not an issue with this rifle, so I just cut them down a little and polished them up. Smiley  I did not lighten the hammer spring, but may later on.



I began reassembly by putting the firing pin and coil spring into the bolt.



Bolt up and through the frame.



Stricker (back half of firing pin assembly) is inserted through frame and into bolt.  Locking key is installed.



Link pin drifted in left to right.



More later! Smiley

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« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2007, 06:56:28 pm »

Part 3 Smiley

Carrier is returned to the mortise.



Carrier arm is installed next.



....and the lever.



Now we are ready to install the timing springs for the carrier and lever.  Given that Italian screws for these springs are so "soft", I thought I would replace them with the nifty American made replacements! Cheesy  VTI sells them. The American made item is on the left.



Installing the springs.




Now the links!



Check for function, and install the side plates.



Now the dust cover:  The Uberti dust cover uses a spring loaded ball bearing to keep the cover open.  The original used a curved flat spring.  Take care when putting this back, as that little ball will take off on you - ask me how I know! Cheesy



Once you have the ball on the spring and the dust cover forward past the check ball, you can install the dust cover retractor boss.  This little item is captured by the back edge of the extractor as the action is opened and moves the dust cover to the open position.



We are done Smiley  Time to go shoot! Wink

For those of you that have these rifles, and are reluctant to take them apart, I hope this will be of some help.  These are really pretty simple designs and can be worked on easily as long as you have good fitting screw drivers.  They were after all, designed to function reliably  under harsh conditions, with a little reasonable care, and simple maintenance, by folks on the frontier of this continent. Smiley












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« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2008, 08:58:44 am »

A friend of mine has an original stripped 1876 receiver. I was talking to him about it and mentioned that the Chaparral was suppose to be an exact reproduction. I dissembled my Chaparral and installed all of the internal parts into the original. All the parts fit. The Chaparral screws have the diameter and screw pitch as the original. The only areas of hand fitting would be the Chaparral side covers need a little more relief at the rear to drop into the action, and the sear/hammer needs adjusted.

He talked to Chaparral and found the it was cheaper to just buy a complete rifle to get the parts that he needs. He got three rifles, has
50 cal barrels on order from Badger, and is going to rebuild the original and the two other Chaparrals to 50-95. I am pretty sure that he is going to build them with a shorter barrel, and a short magazine tube. I think that the holdup is getting the barrels.

My understanding of the toggle links, are, that the pins, front, center, and rear are not suppose to carry any of the rearward thrust of the bolt. It is the rounded portions of the links and receiver that carry the load.

Ken
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« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2008, 07:54:09 am »

My understanding of the toggle links, are, that the pins, front, center, and rear are not suppose to carry any of the rearward thrust of the bolt. It is the rounded portions of the links and receiver that carry the load.
Yep, the pins just hold the parts in relation to one another.  It is neat and simple. 
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« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2008, 02:06:21 pm »

    Reminds me of the trap door Springfield. The later models were designed to fire safely with a broken or missing hinge pin. The front of the breechblock tucked under the receiver hinge very nicely.
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Poohgyrr
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« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2008, 09:32:27 pm »

Thanks much for all this info.  Don't have one "yet" but the Uberti is on my list, just have to decide on which caliber...  (HAH!  So much for my decision not to get any new calibers to reload for...   Shocked  )

In the meantime, I may watch Crossfire Trail again and look closer at that Centennial.
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Chuck 100 yd
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« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2008, 08:19:44 pm »

Grizzly , I have not heard of the company VTI. Can you post a link  or an address to get a catalog. I may have been there but dont recognise the name. Thanks  Chuck
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« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2008, 02:01:26 am »

Grizzly , I have not heard of the company VTI. Can you post a link  or an address to get a catalog. I may have been there but dont recognise the name. Thanks  Chuck

Hi, Chuck.

Here's the link to VTI Smiley

http://www.vtigunparts.com/store/shopdisplaycategories.asp?id=106&cat=Rifles

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« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2008, 10:41:23 pm »

Thanks pard !!  I had it in my favorites, just didn`t recognise the initials. Embarrassed
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« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2010, 05:30:56 pm »

Grizzly, I like your comparisons post, very interesting. Looking closely it seems the links on the Uberti have a major design flaw. They have failed to recognize Winchesters design of transmitting force from bolt to frame. The link pins on the Winchester are not designed to take the force, look close at your picture and the Winchester links have notches above the link pins that marry together in the firing position. When in the firing position, the force is transmitted from bolt to link to link (thru the notched area) to frame. Because the link notches are not present in the Uberti they require larger holes and pins to withstand bolt forces. This explains why Uberti pins often fail and brings doubt that the Uberti action is stronger than the original Winchester as some have claimed. Thank you.
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Josie Wales
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« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2010, 12:27:16 am »

Griz,
It's always neat to see what makes something tick.  I found your pictures very interesting and informative.  Thanks for the great post.

Josie
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« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2010, 01:36:31 pm »

Griz,
It's always neat to see what makes something tick.  I found your pictures very interesting and informative.  Thanks for the great post.

Josie

Thanks, Josie.  Glad you enjoyed them! Smiley
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« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2011, 06:03:15 pm »

Grizz,

Have you compard the Levers between the original and the Uberti?
 I was just wondering how close the Uberti was.

Thanks,
WC
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« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2011, 08:35:36 pm »

Hello Grizz! Say, didn't Pedersoli once make an 1876 lever gun? I am looking for an 1876 myself and want to get the best one I can afford and don't know much about Uberti either. I am hoping to purchase a 50-95 caliber.
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« Reply #44 on: October 31, 2011, 09:03:15 pm »

Hello Grizz! Say, didn't Pedersoli once make an 1876 lever gun? I am looking for an 1876 myself and want to get the best one I can afford and don't know much about Uberti either. I am hoping to purchase a 50-95 caliber.

Howdy, Skyrider.

No, Pedersoli has never made an 1876 lever gun - wish they world.  Currently, other than original Winchesters, the only two makers are Uberti and Chaparral.  My personal pick would be the Uberti.  They make the rifle in 50-95.  Quality is excellent and consistent. Smiley
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« Reply #45 on: November 02, 2011, 08:57:54 pm »

Grizz I certainly do thank you sir for that tid-bit of information on the lever gun!  Grin
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« Reply #46 on: September 20, 2014, 01:30:11 pm »

A round for everyone....

I realize this is an older thread but I was researching a possible purchase of a Uberti/Cimarron 1876. I looked at the comparison
photos Grizzly took and noticed a difference in the link system. Later on in the thread, I came upon this comment:

<They have failed to recognize Winchesters design of transmitting force from bolt to frame. The link pins on the Winchester are not designed to take the force, look close at your picture and the Winchester links have notches above the link pins that marry together in the firing position. When in the firing position, the force is transmitted from bolt to link to link (thru the notched area) to frame. Because the link notches are not present in the Uberti they require larger holes and pins to withstand bolt forces.>

Has anyone addressed this as it seems a very important detail left out of the Uberti. Strengthwise, I can't see how this is as strong or stronger than the original Winchester design. Am I missing something concerning this? Also, are there any drop in replacements for these links that strengthen the rifle?

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H~
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« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2014, 10:12:25 pm »

While considering the hazards of practicing Necromancy, I ran into this "old" re-run.  I was a mite surprised I hadn't paid any real attention to this board.  Anyway .........
The relative safety or "strength" of the reproduction 1876 rifles has ben brought up.  Thought I'd address it.  A bit of background, while building competition Toggle Link rifles (Henry, "66 & '73), a number of '76s also came I to the shop.  The first questions were "can you Short Stroke it?"
then the requests changed to "can you fix it?"  Also many requests to make them more user friendly.  Let's look at "can you fix it?" first.
After the initial excitement when the Chaparral was released the problems started to surface.  The guns were a mishmash of copied Winchester and Uberti design.  Understand, the guns were built by what was left of Armi San Marco.  The result was not pretty.  The biggest immediate problem was sheared link pins.  Initially, the U.S. rep sent me new pins, PDQ.  The reason for the sheared pins was poor fit of the links to the bosses in the frame and on the BREACH block (bolt).  When in battery, the front raidus of the front link should be in light contact with the boss in the bolt and the rear raidus in contact with the boss on the frame and everything in parallel.  Stress is evenly spread between three sets of pins (remember the big knee pin).  In the Chaparral, a couple of us could walk hand in hand thru the gaps between the link raidus and the bosses.  The result was sheared pins.
We (the smiths) also requested new links to fix the link fit problem.  The links we got from Chaparral were worse than the links we needed to replace.  After we replaced the pins, we had to weld up the raidus on the links, re-machine the raidus, then hand fit each one.  That got real expensive.
Next were the problems with the Breach Block, but that is a different subject.
While neither the Chaparral nor the Uberti has the same link design as Winchester's original.  Winchester's original interlocked and took the stress load off the pivot pins entirely.  Uberti simply went to much bigger pins along with a much better fit of the links to the frame and bolt bosses.
So:  Is the Uberti (original question) as strong as (probably) or stronger (probably not) than the the original.  I think the Uberti Is perfectly adaquite for the pressure levels generated by the cartridges its chambered for.  I never received  a Uberti In shop with sheared links.  Now, as far as the Chaparral is concerned, in "out of the box" condition, not safe to shoot.

Coffinmaker
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« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2014, 10:21:07 pm »

Good info there Coffinmaker. Thanks for taking the time to post that.
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« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2015, 06:37:46 am »

Thanks for that hint,

me as a new owner of a unfired Chaparral may have a closer look into it.



This is my first report on my 1876 in another thread:

Greetings folks, Smiley

I hope it is not to late to join into this very informative thread.

This week i bought a unfired Chaparral 1876 28inch in 45-60, from a German in Germany.

Barrel markings are: "Chaparral Charter 2000 Shelton C.T.  IT DE 10"  Serial no. W7606XX

After reading this thread i am in total panic, but after inspecting my 1876 i am much more relaxed Roll Eyes

1. Muzzle crown is absolutely sharp edged instaead of a phase, but should be ok
2. Front sight nicely made and correct alligned, however i changed to a Buffalo Beach Combination front side, which fits in the slot perfectly
3. Tube latch end does not fit in the barrel slot and the tube ring are loose in the barrel like many other Chappies
4. I use shortened starline 45-70 brass and i can not locate a head space issue so far.
5. Rear sight is realy junk and i have this air gap in the slot as well. I replaced the junk with a Lyman 16B folding leaf rear sight which fits perfectly.
6. The lever action is going acceptable for me, maybe i will polish the internal parts a bit.
7. I installed a Lyman no 2 tang peep sight for winchester and Browning replicas 1886 with no problems. It is true i have to find a new place for my thumb  Undecided
8. Wood appearance and fitting is not bad at all

9. Saturday is show time with 320grain lead bullet, BP swiss 2 and a thin card wad between, minimal compressed  on 100 yards Cheesy Cheesy

If you like i keep you informed about my progress.

Mine has a pretty low serial no. concerning your experience it should be crap at all but it isnt...

regards from Bavaria

Tom
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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Winchester Model 1876 (Moderator: Grizzly Adams)  |  Topic: Comparing the Original 1876 with the Uberti 1876 - PICS « previous next »
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