Javascript DHTML Drop Down Menu Powered by dhtml-menu-builder.com
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 19, 2017, 01:46:31 am

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
* Home FlashChat Help Calendar Login Register
Currently there are 0 Users in the Cas City Chat Rooms!
Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Winchester Model 1876 (Moderator: Grizzly Adams)  |  Topic: Comparing the Original 1876 with the Uberti 1876 - PICS 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Comparing the Original 1876 with the Uberti 1876 - PICS  (Read 52431 times)
Grizzly Adams
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1300



WWW
« on: December 09, 2007, 01:15:32 pm »


The following is a photo essay comparing the Uberti 1876 with an original Winchester 1876.  It was originally three threads with I have merged into one. Smiley

It also provides some suggestions for tuning up and smoothing up the Uberti.  Much of this also will apply to the Chaparral 1876, with the exception of the firing pin arrangement.
Logged

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran!
COMNAVFORV, NRA life, SASS Life, TG, STORM Rider #36.
GAF
Grizzly Adams
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1300



WWW
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2007, 08:21:49 pm »

Well, I have had this awhile, and it seems to function as advertised, so I thought it was time to see what makes it tick. 
Also a chance to tune up things that may need it. Smiley



This is a 22 inch barrel Uberti 1876 in 45-60 caliber.  Serial number is CN0XXX. 
So it is a three digit serial "Centennial" model.  As I understand it, this is one of the first 10 units
 with 22 inch barrels received by Cimarron Arms.

Below is my original 1876 in 45-75.  Short rifle with 22 inch barrel and shotgun butt.



Off with the side plates! Grin  Wow, Uberti is still torquing down those screws! Tongue 

A little Kroil and we have them off!  The side plates on the original fell off. 

Here are the right side plates, side by side.



Looks like Uberti made a slight change in the "ladle."  Actually, I think it is a bit heavier?  Note machining on both.

Out with the links!  The original links are much easier to get out than the Uberti links
..... of course they are about 126 years old now! Grin 

Here they are side by side.  The black ones are the Uberti links.  Cool, huh?




Laid one on the other, they are real close!  One big difference I can see is that the Uberti link pins
 in the frame of the rifle are thicker than the original rifle.  Note the larger holes in the Uberti links. 
(The same is also true of the Uberti 1873 and the Winnie 1873.) 

The original links seem to have closer tolerance at the joint, but both seem equally robust.

Now the tuff part - Getting those timing spring screws loose! Undecided

..........this is not going well! Cry

Finally! Grin  I had to use a clamp to compress the springs enough to get the screw loose. 

Lucky, no buggered up screws! Smiley It really is not that the screws are overtightened,
it is the fact that they are under a load from the heavy springs.

Don't believe I need to take the original down in further to make the necessary comparisons,
so I will leave the springs in the old girl. Wink

Here is a shot of the interior of the original showing the springs, bolt and firing pin. 
Note the firing pin retractor in the back of the bolt.  That little lever retracts the original's one piece firing pin. 


If you look at the pics of the links, you will see the small pin on the left link that engages the retractor. 
Note that the Uberti link does not have that pin.

Here is another interior shot of the original.  Note machine work.




For comparison, this is the same shot of the interior of the Uberti.  Note machine work.




NOW, this is interesting!  Uberti is still using the two piece firing pin, but has strengthened the design
by adapting the Winchester design - .....well, sorta! Huh

Here is the bolt and firing pin assembly.  Note the small "key"?  kinda like the original cut in half.

This little item is new, and replaces the tiny pin you will see in the Uberti 1873 with the two piece firing pin. 
This is much stronger and also a nod to the original design.



Here is a shot showing the machined recess that the key fit in -


The retraction of the two piece pin is by the coil spring shown.  The key is no longer a part of the retraction,
but serves to capture and retain the striker end on the assembly.  Actually, pretty neat idea. Smiley

That's all for now.  Hope this has been of interest!

I will post more as I get further into this project! Smiley


Logged

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran!
COMNAVFORV, NRA life, SASS Life, TG, STORM Rider #36.
GAF
john boy
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1474



« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2007, 08:57:35 pm »

Winchester Lever Action Repeating Firearms : The Models of 1866, 1873 & 1876 by Arthur Pirkle ... excellent reference book with a multitude of details on the '76 and it's evolution from the '66.  Amazon.com has new and used copies
Logged

Regards
SHOTS Master John Boy

WartHog ...
Brevet 1st Lt, Scout Company, Department of the Atlantic
SASS  ~  SCORRS ~ OGB with Star

Devote Convert to BPCR
Hoof Hearted
Cartridge Conversion Specialist
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714


I run the Mustache Militia.....


WWW
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2007, 09:02:59 pm »

Grizz

Very cool and very informative!
Logged

Anonymity breeds bravado.......especially over the internet!
http://cartridgeconversion.com
http://heelbasebullet.com
aka: Mayor Maynot KILLYA SASS #8038
STORM #400
Grizzly Adams
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1300



WWW
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2007, 09:56:58 pm »

Winchester Lever Action Repeating Firearms : The Models of 1866, 1873 & 1876 by Arthur Pirkle ... excellent reference book with a multitude of details on the '76 and it's evolution from the '66.  Amazon.com has new and used copies

+1 Smiley
Logged

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran!
COMNAVFORV, NRA life, SASS Life, TG, STORM Rider #36.
GAF
Leverluver
Very Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 53


« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2007, 10:47:11 pm »

Mine is all apart in prep for CCH.  I thought the "guts" were very well made and finished; much better than my Uberti 73.  A couple of surprises though.  First, the barrel is fully grooved on the bottom for reception of the mag tube.  I don't know whether that is original or not but it will be interesting (but not impossible) to duplicate on a replacement barrel.  Second, I was surprised that the barrel tenon was SAE threads.  I just presumed that they would be metric, although I'm happy it isn't.  Last, is the rounded dove tail for the mag tube ring.  That will also be veeeeery interesting to duplicate.   
Logged
Grizzly Adams
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1300



WWW
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2007, 12:30:23 am »

Mine is all apart in prep for CCH.  I thought the "guts" were very well made and finished; much better than my Uberti 73.  A couple of surprises though.  First, the barrel is fully grooved on the bottom for reception of the mag tube.  I don't know whether that is original or not but it will be interesting (but not impossible) to duplicate on a replacement barrel.  Second, I was surprised that the barrel tenon was SAE threads.  I just presumed that they would be metric, although I'm happy it isn't. Last, is the rounded dove tail for the mag tube ring.  That will also be veeeeery interesting to duplicate.   

Yep!  It is not really a dovetail.  Same kind of deal on all the old Winnies.  The mag tube ring, or "bearing" actually twists in and out of the cut.  I believe I have heard it called a rotary dovetail.Huh
Logged

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran!
COMNAVFORV, NRA life, SASS Life, TG, STORM Rider #36.
GAF
quigleysharps4570
Very Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2007, 04:21:43 am »

Thanks for taking the time to show all that Grizz.  Wink
Logged
Deadeye Don
SASS # 76281
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 2393


DeadeyeDon


« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2007, 07:19:21 am »

Question is now.    Can he put it back to together again?   Cheesy
Logged

Great Lakes Freight and Mining Company
Grizzly Adams
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1300



WWW
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2007, 09:39:34 am »

Question is now.    Can he put it back to together again?   Cheesy

LOL!  Cheesy
Logged

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran!
COMNAVFORV, NRA life, SASS Life, TG, STORM Rider #36.
GAF
ART C GUNN
Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 14


« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2007, 11:52:55 am »

Great photos............thanks

Now I need some help withmy Uberti. I want to put a sling swivel eye in my forend cap. I cant loosen the cap screws and I can't for the life of me remove the mag tube in order to remove the cap. I know that screw gorrilla is working overtime out here at the factory. Any suggestions?
Logged
Deadeye Don
SASS # 76281
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 2393


DeadeyeDon


« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2007, 12:34:09 pm »

Great photos............thanks

Now I need some help withmy Uberti. I want to put a sling swivel eye in my forend cap. I cant loosen the cap screws and I can't for the life of me remove the mag tube in order to remove the cap. I know that screw gorrilla is working overtime out here at the factory. Any suggestions?

I have not been successful in removing mine either.  I have tried the usual smacking it with a plastic mallet and squirting wd40 on it.  I got my 66 and 73 end caps off, but this 76 is a bear.
Logged

Great Lakes Freight and Mining Company
Leverluver
Very Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 53


« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2007, 01:25:15 pm »

The worst screws on mine were the hammer screw and the nose cap screws; same ones that were the worst on my 73.  Just get the rifle on a flat solid surface and with a screw driver perfectly matched to the slot, put your chin solidly down on the butt end of the screw driver.  Holding down force with your chin, apply pulsing torque to the driver.  Eventually they popped loose.  The chin also keeps the driver from jumping up out of the slot and buggering it up. 

You have to drive out the pin in the mag tube ring/hanger in order to remove the mag tube.  I don't know whether it makes any difference but I drove it out following general convention of driving out from left to right, viewing from the rear.  That little groove in the tube that the pin goes in is the only thing that keeps the mag tube in place.  It is not screwed to the receiver like in an 86. 
Logged
Deadeye Don
SASS # 76281
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 2393


DeadeyeDon


« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2007, 01:30:54 pm »

The worst screws on mine were the hammer screw and the nose cap screws; same ones that were the worst on my 73.  Just get the rifle on a flat solid surface and with a screw driver perfectly matched to the slot, put your chin solidly down on the butt end of the screw driver.  Holding down force with your chin, apply pulsing torque to the driver.  Eventually they popped loose.  The chin also keeps the driver from jumping up out of the slot and buggering it up. 

You have to drive out the pin in the mag tube ring/hanger in order to remove the mag tube.  I don't know whether it makes any difference but I drove it out following general convention of driving out from left to right, viewing from the rear.  That little groove in the tube that the pin goes in is the only thing that keeps the mag tube in place.  It is not screwed to the receiver like in an 86. 

I am not sure my chin is that strong.  Grin
Logged

Great Lakes Freight and Mining Company
ART C GUNN
Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 14


« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2007, 02:25:47 pm »

I did drive out the mag tube pin in the hanger.  it seems the tube is binding either against the wood or nosecap hanger. Will have to play some more with it.  By the way...all of my original 76's do have the mag tube groove running full length of the barrel.

Eventually I want to cut down the barrel on my Uberti to 24". I have a original made in that lenght and it carries real nice.
Logged
Leverluver
Very Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 53


« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2007, 03:52:35 pm »

I had loosened the nose cap before I drove out the pin.  After both, the mag tube slid out easliy so iimagine the the nose cap does keep the tube in some sort of bind against the dovetail block that the nose cap screws screw into.  BTW, the dovetail block that holds the nose cap was very loose in mine.  Once the nose cap was off, the block fell right out of the dovetail.  It might be something to be checked and corrected before recoil batters the dovetail or overstresses that small pin holding in the mag tube.

I haven't decided whether I'm going to go with making the factory barrel into a 24" HRHO button mag version or put on a 22" (full mag)  round barrel.  Might do both and see which I like better.  The groove in the bottom of the original does make the button mag option a little more interesting.  The barrel will be pretty thin before the groove is fully removed on the portion extending past the button mag.   
Logged
ART C GUNN
Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 14


« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2007, 07:52:06 pm »

Why not just leave it as a full mag.and make it a half octagon........turn down the factory barrel.. cheaper that way
Logged
Leverluver
Very Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 53


« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2007, 09:48:47 pm »

Just turning the barrel to half round does not remove all that much weight.  I ran the numbers and the result is ~ 3oz.  The goal of the project is to reduce the weight and move the center of gravity to the rear.  I already have enough guns that need a tripod or wheels.  I plan to carry this one.  As far as the magazine, the last I heard Crazy horse was dead  Wink.  Except for fightin injuns, I can't think of any reason or need to stuff another pound of cartridges in the magazine and make it even heavier.  If I can't kill what I am to kill with 4 to 5 rounds, I need to hang it on the wall and get a rocking chair  Wink.  So 22"RBFM or 24"HRHO button mag.   
Logged
Grizzly Adams
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1300



WWW
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2007, 10:10:17 pm »

Just turning the barrel to half round does not remove all that much weight.  I ran the numbers and the result is ~ 3oz.  The goal of the project is to reduce the weight and move the center of gravity to the rear.  I already have enough guns that need a tripod or wheels.  I plan to carry this one.  As far as the magazine, the last I heard Crazy horse was dead  Wink.  Except for fightin injuns, I can't think of any reason or need to stuff another pound of cartridges in the magazine and make it even heavier.  If I can't kill what I am to kill with 4 to 5 rounds, I need to hang it on the wall and get a rocking chair  Wink.  So 22"RBFM or 24"HRHO button mag.   

LOL Grin

I sure like the 22 inch round barrel on the 1876.  I wish Uberti and Chaparral would consider building one with the short barrel and finished in bright blue - or, and a shotgun butt would be nice too!  I frankly get tired seeing all the CCH receives on the 1873s and now the 1876s.  That's one thing I really like about  that NWMP SRC.
Logged

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran!
COMNAVFORV, NRA life, SASS Life, TG, STORM Rider #36.
GAF
john boy
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1474



« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2007, 11:00:13 pm »

Grizzly - You the Man!  This is Excellent! Thank You.
Not many of us have the original  Sad and the comparisons are most educational

Might want to move this post up as a Sticky so it doesn't get lost as the forum grows

Logged

Regards
SHOTS Master John Boy

WartHog ...
Brevet 1st Lt, Scout Company, Department of the Atlantic
SASS  ~  SCORRS ~ OGB with Star

Devote Convert to BPCR
Fox Creek Kid
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 4448



« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2007, 11:08:28 pm »

Griz, any chance of posting some Chaparral internal photos as well? Which of the two, Uberti & Chaparral, is the more authentic?
Logged
Grizzly Adams
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1300



WWW
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2007, 12:22:42 am »

Griz, any chance of posting some Chaparral internal photos as well? Which of the two, Uberti & Chaparral, is the more authentic?

Hi, Kid.   Welcome back! Wink

That is a great question, and I don't know the answer. Huh  From what I read, the Chaparral is supposed to be the most "authentic" of the two, a least in respect to copying the original design internally.  What sets the two apart in terms of "authenticity" (I am told) is the use of the one piece firing pin design - as per the original.  I don't know, as I don't have a Chaparral to compare!  Wink  My personal opinion is that it doesn't really make that much difference, both seem to work just fine! Smiley  If you look through my pics, you will see that Uberti has changed their design - at least the design as executed in the 1873 - to use the same type of key to retain the firing pin as in the original design, albiet modified to accommodate the two piece, recoil spring firing pin.

I have only had my hands on one Chaparral, and it was a fine shooting arm indeed.  However, the owner was not wild about me taking a screw driver to it! Grin  Maybe someone will post some pics that compare the original Winnie to the Chaparral.  I would like to see that myself! Smiley
Logged

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran!
COMNAVFORV, NRA life, SASS Life, TG, STORM Rider #36.
GAF
Grizzly Adams
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1300



WWW
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2007, 01:58:16 pm »

The saga continues! Smiley 

Spent the morning doing a bit of cleanup on the inside of the frame.  I removed a number of nasty little burrs left over from the machining process.  They did not seem to be causing any problems, but I am picky! Wink  Worst where around the slot that the carrier arm passes up through when the action is opened.

Next I decided to remove the magazine end cap to make sure the inside of the magazine tube is clean.  Really dreaded this one.  Uberti uses a threaded plug, and they can be a bear to get off!  I was surprised that this one unscrewed without any difficulty.  Bonzo must have missed this one! Cheesy



Mag tube was actually fairly clean.  FWIW, Winchester never used a threaded plug on any of the 1876 variations.  They used 4 different types, but all were unthreaded and secured with a screw through the magazine tube and the plug.  2 types use a lip that was captured by a slot in the end of the barrel.  Like these:




Also note that the underside of the barrrel is relieved by having a rounded channel machined into the underside to accommodate the magazine tube.  The Uberti shares this feature.  If you look closely at the top pic of the Uberti, you can see it. Smiley

Hope this has been of interest.






Logged

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran!
COMNAVFORV, NRA life, SASS Life, TG, STORM Rider #36.
GAF
Hoof Hearted
Cartridge Conversion Specialist
Deputy Marshal
Top Active Citizen
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1714


I run the Mustache Militia.....


WWW
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2007, 03:18:18 pm »

Grizz

I can verify that the toggle links that Winchester Bob makes and sells fit in the Chaparral very well (in fact they are a real good way to eliminate excess headspace). These are billed to be exactly like the original Winchester ones in every way. It would follow and be safe to assume that all related parts must be pretty close, with the exception of hand fitting.

I think based on the poor hammer channel (hammer to tang slot fit) that is so typical of the Chaparrals. One could assume that just like in the 1873 Colt SAA replicas by ASM, that they copied the original to the best of their ability. With "copy" and "ability" being a key factor.

It was purported over on the SASS wire by a Chaparral spokesperson that they are an "exact" copy. Also that CNC machinery is used to insure this fact. But...........that only means repeatability not correct or exactly the same. Cry
Logged

Anonymity breeds bravado.......especially over the internet!
http://cartridgeconversion.com
http://heelbasebullet.com
aka: Mayor Maynot KILLYA SASS #8038
STORM #400
Fox Creek Kid
NCOWS
Top Active Citizen
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 4448



« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2007, 04:31:58 pm »

Has anyone done a side by side with an original/Uberti/Chaparral to confirm which is the most authentic?
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 Go Up Print 
Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Winchester Model 1876 (Moderator: Grizzly Adams)  |  Topic: Comparing the Original 1876 with the Uberti 1876 - PICS « previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.083 seconds with 22 queries.