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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Winchester Model 1876 (Moderator: Grizzly Adams)  |  Topic: Let's Start a List: Chaparral and Uberti Production Problems 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Poll
Question: Few replica rifles 'Out of the Box' do not have any problems with the rifle.  What problems have you had with your rifle, if any?
Cartridge Lip Missing on Bolt Base - 8 (5%)
Firing Pin Hole Not Cut Correctly - 6 (3.7%)
Carrier Block Droops Below Receiver - 8 (5%)
Excess Head Space - 11 (6.8%)
Spent Case Does Not Eject from Receiver - 5 (3.1%)
Magazine Ring Doesn't Fit Flush into Dovetail Cut - 7 (4.3%)
Magazine Plug Lip Doesn't Fit Flush into Barrel Cut - 9 (5.6%)
I had to Send the Rifle Back for Replacement - 14 (8.7%)
Other Problem(s) - 36 (22.4%)
My Rifle is Slick as a Whistle - 57 (35.4%)
Total Voters: 113

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Author Topic: Let's Start a List: Chaparral and Uberti Production Problems  (Read 111745 times)
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« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2007, 12:29:29 pm »

Ok.........

For fear of repisal, I feel it's time to get off the "wags" and back onto a more informative and helpful line of talk here Grin

I want to start by offering my help either via email, posts, or phone. I have a lot of years gunsmithing and although I probably will never know as much as some, I affected the necessary repairs on the five Chaparrals with the problems I mentioned farther up in this thread. If anyone comes on here and needs help or advise, don't hesitate to contact me. After 15 years of smithing I gave up my ffl but I have a near and dear friend with one (he builds custom flintlocks). I can help you with instruction and parts.

The Crapparal I kept was fortunately blessed with fair wood to metal fit. The headspace, bolt, firing pin, sights, mag tube, and whatever else I had problems with were all easy for me to correct. You can benefit from my experience and there are others who will chime in to help. My guess is there are a few hundred of these rifles floating around with either poor QC or some other form of ill "repair" by Charter.
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« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2007, 12:45:52 pm »

Ok.........

For fear of repisal, I feel it's time to get off the "wags" and back onto a more informative and helpful line of talk here Grin

I want to start by offering my help either via email, posts, or phone. I have a lot of years gunsmithing and although I probably will never know as much as some, I affected the necessary repairs on the five Chaparrals with the problems I mentioned farther up in this thread. If anyone comes on here and needs help or advise, don't hesitate to contact me. After 15 years of smithing I gave up my ffl but I have a near and dear friend with one (he builds custom flintlocks). I can help you with instruction and parts.

The Chaparral Wink I kept was fortunately blessed with fair wood to metal fit. The headspace, bolt, firing pin, sights, mag tube, and whatever else I had problems with were all easy for me to correct. You can benefit from my experience and there are others who will chime in to help. My guess is there are a few hundred of these rifles floating around with either poor QC or some other form of ill "repair" by Charter.


Your offer to help others benefit from your knowledge and experience is indeed constructive! Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2007, 05:07:29 pm »

HH - I believe that these are the items that most folks have/had with their '76's:
  • Missing cartridge support lip on the bolt base
  • Excess head space
  • Magazine tube moving past the muzzle
Would you tell the folks how you corrected these problems? 
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« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2007, 08:48:24 pm »

HH - I believe that these are the items that most folks have/had with their '76's:

  • Missing cartridge support lip on the bolt base
This is a bit more than most will want to handle on their own and from what I have read Charter is replacing the bolts. It is not hard to TIG weld and grind/file a new one on (I do it all the time on orig 73's) but I have also noted that the lip does not have the proper curve on the rim side. Meaning it usually causes the bolt to force down upon closing on a case, causing "off-center" firing pin strikes (this magnifies as headspace decreases). If you look carefully you will see this happening. The cure is to carefully grind the "top" portion in a slight curve. Of course you have to remove the bolt to affect this repair.
  • Excess head space
The BEST fix for this is new longer toggle links. I can't really describe how to fit or lengthen them here because of space, but I CAN help anyone personally via email. I like Winchester Bob's links and they worked perfectly with one small modification.[/color]
  • Magazine tube moving past the muzzle
The easiest and most secure fix here is Silver Soldering the "ring" to the barrel and drilling the hole larger that the pin goes through, then making a larger pin. Two of the Five I fixed required the Silver Soldering as the dovetails cut in the barrel were terrible and the "ring" pulled off after the re-pinning.
Would you tell the folks how you corrected these problems? 

Another issue, though it is only cosmetic, that is easy to fix is the "hump" where the "heel" at the top of the buttplate meets the stock. This requires heating the buttplate and forging it flat and then proper inletting.

Most other issues in function are addressed the same as on 1873's.

Also I have heard of side plate problems like lack of proper lips and such, these need to be addressed on an individual basis.

I hope this helps!
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« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2007, 11:04:21 pm »

Quote
Would you tell the folks how you corrected these problems?

HH - glad to contribute also ...

Missing lip on bolt base:  Because the lip is necessary to allow the ejector to firming grip the cartridge and keep the loaded round from 'rising' when going into battery ... I took pictures of a dozen spent cases that I indexed, showing the primer hits near and at the primer hole.  I sent them to Nick Ecker and Italy (Nicola and Angelo).  Swiss Oscar also penned a lengthy letter to Nick detailing that original rifles had lips and the purpose that Winchester put them on the bolts.  Ecker's email to Italy only contained one word ... HELP!  Charter Arms then sent us 4 new base bolts with the lips.

Excess head space:
When I drove up to Charter Arms and proved to them that there was 014 excess head space with an unfired 348 case (062 rim diameter) in the chamber and bolt in battery ... I was provided with the parts drawer that contained the toggle links.  I measured over 2 dozen and separated a couple that were 002 and 003" longer.  They came home with me.  Then I took each link and filed down the angles where the front and back link meet when fully extended.  This increased the length of the links when the bolt based went into battery.  In addition, the shoulders of the 348 reloads also took up head space and reduced the excess to zero with the bolt in battery and loaded cartridge in the chamber.

Magazine tube moving past the muzzle:
Is a Work In Process ... after two tries to use a larger pin through the tube ring.  Considered the silver solder approach but decided against it because the ring would be permanently attached to the barrel.

Two conditions exist that keep allowing the tube to extend past the muzzle -
1.  The elliptical dove tail on the barrel that holds the tube ring 
(a) Was cut too deep allowing 014 gap between the barrel and the base of the ring
(b) Was cut too long.  Before bluing, I believe the barrel sub contractor, put 3 punch marks on each dove tail 'ear' to force the ears down - to try to allow the ring to stay in place.

So, I'll pick up the tube ring this week.  It will have a bead of TIG weld on each 'wing' of the ring.  I'll mill the bead down so when it goes into the barrel dove tail there will be zero excess gap

2.  The lip of magazine plug presently doesn't fit tightly into the slot cut.  So a new plug with a longer ear with be made using my friend's (Swiss Oscar) lathe.  Then with the tube in place and the ring properly seated to the barrel, the plug will be custom fitted into the slot cut so it is absolutely tight.  A 6/32 thread screw through a half moon cut on top of the magazine tube will be tapped into the ring base to hold the ring/tube tension.  What Italy did before they shipped the rifle I received didn't work.  They applied cold solder to the plug and barrel to try and hold everything together 'tightly'! 
 
The incorrectly indexed barrel that was fitted to the receiver on mine - causing the excess head space ... is postponed because the rifle shoots great groups.  I have an agreement with Charter Arms.  If the head space starts to 'grow' after the rifle loosens up ... they will replace the whole rifle under warranty

I heard also about the side plate problem, specifically the right one with the loading gate.  This was a problem with the xxx digit serial number rifles and has since been corrected.  It can be replaced by Charter Arms under warranty 

Misfires are another known issue.  Using cartridges with a 057 rim diameter and excess head space are the contributors.  I understand the Chaparral Arms in Italy now has GO-NO GO gauges, presumed on a case with a 062 rim diameter.  Would be interesting to know the serial numbers that don't have a problem with head space ... indicating that the gauges are being used before the rifles are shipped



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« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2007, 11:24:03 pm »

John Boy

The "lip" on the lower face of the bolt (the "replacements" I have seen) will leave a heavy impression on the edge of the case rim (often miss-interpreted as an extractor or ejector mark) if the rifle in question has minimum headspace. This is why I explained the fix the way I did in the post above. It would be "correct" like it is if the case rim was tapered like the original balloon head cases were. When you say, "there was 014 excess head space with an unfired 348 case (062 rim diameter) in the chamber" you mean rim thickness right?

I have seen one other barrel that was peened that way. But there is no control evident in the size or shape of that dovetail from rifle to rifle. It also should be tapered.

Silver soldering only makes the magazine ring "semi-permanent" as it can be heated the same way to remove. My heli arc skills are pretty good and I can't build up that ring in that area with any hope that it will be appealing afterward Grin The solder approach (done correctly) is darn near invisable and has no real effects on the bluing.
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« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2007, 12:02:05 am »

Quote
you mean rim thickness right?
HH - Correct
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« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2007, 12:55:39 am »

If your fired case looks like the one on the left instead of looking like the one on the right, send the rifle back to Chaparral Cry
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« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2007, 04:45:16 pm »

has chapperal started to offer replacement wood for walnut on the early 76's yet? i never really liked that weard wood the first came out with. kurt250
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« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2007, 02:08:20 pm »

has chapperal started to offer replacement wood for walnut on the early 76's yet? i never really liked that weard wood the first came out with. kurt250
Kurt

I have read a number of posts on other forums where gents say that the wood under the faux finish (triwood) is the same wood as the newer (non triwood) guns. It appears an easy process to strip and refinish Wink
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« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2007, 04:21:59 pm »


Let's Start a List:
Was your Chaparral or Uberti '76 Winchester slick as a whistle - Out of the Box ... or was there problems with it? 

I bought the Chaparral.  To begin with let me state that Charter Arms took care of all the problems I had.
(1):  The Receiver Tang was stamped Model of 1866
(2):  The receiver was full of grease.
(3):  It took me half an hour to scrub the barrel clean of all the gook that was in it.  This was even before I fired it.
(4):  The elevator cutout was not cut square.
(5):  The pin holding the Magazine tube fell out when I was firing it and the cap and magazine spring popped out the front of the magazine.


If you had (have) problems with your rifle, what did you do to correct it or what do you intend to do to resolve it?

(1):  I contacted the feller who sold me the rifle, and he put me on to the Gentleman up at Charter Arms, Nick Ecker, who had me send it back to him for replacement.
(2):  I did not like the front or rear sights so I replaced them with a set of Marbles Full Buckhorn Rear Sight and a 3/32nd White Dot Front Sight


In the poll, you can vote up to 9 of the options - if you experienced all 9 listed.  If you encountered a problem that is not listed, please vote for Option 9 and explain what it was in the thread
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« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2007, 06:11:50 pm »

Grapeshot

Option #10:
Given what you experienced and now know about the Chaparral would you buy another?

Option#11:
After experiencing said problems would you recommend a Chaparral to a friend?

Option #12:
How's that Uberti sounding right about now Grin
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« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2007, 07:07:03 am »

Option #10:
Given what you experienced and now know about the Chaparral would you buy another?

Only if I can get their carbine, RCMP type, in .45-60.
Option#11:
After experiencing said problems would you recommend a Chaparral to a friend?

Only If I know that their QC issues were cleared up.  The guns do shoot well.

Option #12:
How's that Uberti sounding right about now ? Grin

A whole lot better, however, they weren't available at the time I bought mine.
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« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2007, 12:20:29 pm »

Well, after 3 fixes to correct the magazine tube from moving past the muzzle during recoil - I called Charter Arms yesterday and talked to Dee Ecker for new parts
  • Magazine Tube
  • Plug
  • Ring
  • and a forearm screw that I left on the bench when I was up there
Got a call today from Dee and Chris (who does the repairs) is sending out the parts TODAY!
I call this SERVICE with a capital 'S'

Of course, I promised Dee a box of chocolates the next time I'm up in CT  Wink
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« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2007, 01:16:38 pm »

Chapparal 1876 45/60 early (sub 300) serial number. Most accurate shooting heap of crap I have ever had to deal with........
1. cheap,ill-fitting,ugly faux-finished box wood stocks replaced with beautiful American wallnut,hand fitted=$350.00
2.Front sight blade fell out after 4 shots,replaced with excellent Marbles for=$28.00
3.Rear sight from old Mattel toys stock...shockingly junky.=Buffalo arms contacted and sold me an authentic replica $150.00.
4.Safety disconector does not contact pad on lever.....no fix at present.
5.Excessively tight lock-up on closing,perhaps too little headspace.
6.Action was full of very stiff grease.
7.Paid an initial $1000.00 for a $500.00 gun.
8.Made at the OLD Armi-San-Marco factory home of the A.W.A. line of troubled guns.

The barrels on these rifles is the best part,they should sell them to Uberti(unless,of course,that is who they buy them from!)

Never again!!!!,I will hand -pick a Uberti next time and I am sure it will be a better peice. Doc

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« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2007, 01:32:23 pm »

I'd love to own a decent '76 replica........but..........after looking at 6 different rifles at 2 different gun shows, and several more on dealers racks on both ends of the country, I couldn't buy one.  Until someone like USFA builds one I can't see spending hard earned (or any other kind) of money on one of these.  It's really a shame.
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« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2007, 01:45:36 pm »

Chapparal 1876 45/60 early (sub 300) serial number. Most accurate shooting heap of crap I have ever had to deal with........
1. cheap,ill-fitting,ugly faux-finished box wood stocks replaced with beautiful American wallnut,hand fitted=$350.00
2.Front sight blade fell out after 4 shots,replaced with excellent Marbles for=$28.00
3.Rear sight from old Mattel toys stock...shockingly junky.=Buffalo arms contacted and sold me an authentic replica $150.00.
4.Safety disconector does not contact pad on lever.....no fix at present.
5.Excessively tight lock-up on closing,perhaps too little headspace.
6.Action was full of very stiff grease.
7.Paid an initial $1000.00 for a $500.00 gun.
8.Made at the OLD Armi-San-Marco factory home of the A.W.A. line of troubled guns.

The barrels on these rifles is the best part,they should sell them to Uberti(unless,of course,that is who they buy them from!)

Never again!!!!,I will hand -pick a Uberti next time and I am sure it will be a better peice. Doc



Doc
"4.Safety disconector does not contact pad on lever.....no fix at present."
More than likely the spring either is not sitting on the disconnector or it does not have sufficient pressure.
"5.Excessively tight lock-up on closing,perhaps too little headspace."
Try checking the headspace this way; with an empty (fired) case in the chamber and the action closed insert automotive type feeler gauge from the side between the case and boltface (you should be able to just get it in under the extractor) if a 2 or 3 thousnadths gauge won't go in then you have too little headspace. BUT Jamison brass tends to run a few thousandths smaller. Shame there is none available now. If you have sufficient headspace then there is another problem!

I feel for you and my problems were much worse!
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« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2007, 01:52:16 pm »

Chapparal 1876 45/60 early (sub 300) serial number. Most accurate shooting heap of crap I have ever had to deal with........
1. cheap,ill-fitting,ugly faux-finished box wood stocks replaced with beautiful American wallnut,hand fitted=$350.00
2.Front sight blade fell out after 4 shots,replaced with excellent Marbles for=$28.00
3.Rear sight from old Mattel toys stock...shockingly junky.=Buffalo arms contacted and sold me an authentic replica $150.00.
4.Safety disconector does not contact pad on lever.....no fix at present.
5.Excessively tight lock-up on closing,perhaps too little headspace.
6.Action was full of very stiff grease.
7.Paid an initial $1000.00 for a $500.00 gun.
8.Made at the OLD Armi-San-Marco factory home of the A.W.A. line of troubled guns.

The barrels on these rifles is the best part,they should sell them to Uberti(unless,of course,that is who they buy them from!)

Never again!!!!,I will hand -pick a Uberti next time and I am sure it will be a better peice. Doc



The quality and accuracy of the barrels seems to be a common theme with the Chaparral.  Makes folks more willing to put up with the rest of the issues!  Well, "the only interesting rifles are accurate rifles."  Hmmmmmm...someone said that! Wink
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« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2007, 02:12:48 pm »

Yes this rifle is accurate and therefore"interesting".I would rather have been able to purcase a gun with a Uberti action, American woodwork and sights and THAT barrel from Chapparal.
I have W.W. 45/70 brass turned-down to 45/60 and mold my own projectiles from 50/50 wheel weight and pure lead into an R.C.B.S. 350 grain gas-checked projectile sized at .459(most important dimension).Lit-up by xmp5744 over a Winchester primer produces impressive accuracy.Even though this is a very desired addition to my shooting experiences I think it  is a shame in this day and age to have to reconstruct a relatively expensive mechanism to make it perform at 1876 levals of quality and result.Doc.
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« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2007, 03:48:37 pm »

Well I have to say that I have been nothing but pleased with my Chapparal. Not only is it very accurate, it is also very smooth operating. And the wood to metal fit is also very well done.
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« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2007, 04:19:07 pm »

Quik Fire I am very glad for you,I'll bet that the importer had to do a lot of fancy dancin' in Italy to bring the standard up.I simply got caught with what should have been a pre-production gun.Too bad they decided to "test "the market by letting us buy the experimental pieces.I can help them by saying that apart from about everything else on their product they needn't improve the barrels!.Doc.
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« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2007, 10:32:50 pm »

This is the first post ever on an internet site so I hope it goes OK.
     I Recieved my Cimarron/Uberti Model 1876 in June of this year.  Right out of the box it was about as perfect as one should expect.  The first thing I did before shooting it was to replace the front sight with a combination beech sight from Montana Vintage Arms.  Next I removed the rear barrel sight and replaced it with a fitted piece of walnut so I wouldn't cut my hand on the exposed dovetail.  Then I installed a Marbles tang sight (by the way if anyone is going to do the same get the sight specified for the 1973 Winchester since the base part is further forward and leaves more room for your thumb to wrap around the wrist) since my old eyes require this.  I slugged the bore and it came out just under 0.458.  I am using the RCBS 45 - 300 GC that I buy from Frank at Mt Baldy Bullets up in Cody.  The bullets are cast of 1:20 alloy and lubed with SPG and are 0.459 inches.
     Before I received my rifle I made some cases from 45-70 brass.  When I received the rifle I found that some of the cartridges would not let me close the lever without a lot of force.  I measured the rim thickness on the ones I was having trouble with and found that any rim thicker than 0.064 would not close.  I ordered some cases from Buffalo Arms that have the rims thinned and have not had any trouble since.
     The second group of five shots fired from a bench at 50 yards and four shots in one hole 0.5 inches center to center and of course the fifth shot opened the group up to 1.875 inches.  Not bad for an old fat guy with bad eyes.  I had witnesses to.
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« Reply #47 on: December 20, 2007, 12:06:04 am »

Jubal - Welcome to Winchester 76 and the excellent informative post.  Thanks for sharing.
Do have a question:  presume the 458 on the Uberti is groove diameter.  Would you happen to know the bore diameter?
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« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2007, 11:47:12 am »

I'd love to own a decent '76 replica........but..........after looking at 6 different rifles at 2 different gun shows, and several more on dealers racks on both ends of the country, I couldn't buy one.  Until someone like USFA builds one I can't see spending hard earned (or any other kind) of money on one of these.  It's really a shame.
ShieldsMT

You are missing out on a great reproduction firearm.  Sure, some of them have some problems, but in most cases I have seen from people reporting here on the web is that they can be fixed with relatively minimal effort.  I simply sent mine back to Taylors and they fixed it and had it back to me within a week.  Now it functions and shoots well.  One thing you need to remember is that even back pre 1900 guns would come into hardware stores with flaws that people ended up having to fix.  So in this regard the guns that we are getting are "period correct".  I hope you join us buy finding a 76 that you like and are willing to spend the money on.  By the way dont hold your breath too long waiting for USFA to make a 76 as it won't happen.  Regards.  Deadeye.
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Jubal Wilson
American Plainsmen Society
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« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2007, 08:00:45 pm »

john boy,
I forgot to measure the bore diameter but next time it gets above freezing in the garage I will slug it again and let you know.
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Jubal Wilson

When a man loses his dreams he becomes a wanderer in the wasteland of human existence.
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