Original bullet for the .45-75

[Buck Stinson]

In answer to your questions about this mold casting a "naked" bullet, it is believed by collectors that both the 1st model and the 2nd model Winchester molds, such as the one pictured here, may have been manufactured for Winchester by the Sharps Rifle Company.  Since the vast majority of Sharps molds at that time were "naked" (without grease grooves), it seems possible that these early Winchester molds were cherried the same way.  I  do not have a 1st model mold but it was exactly the same as my 2nd model shown in this photo, except that the handle looked like a single scissor handle, instead of wood.   It is also interesting to note that the 1st model mold was not marked with caliber or manufacturer.  The only caliber available at that time was .44 WCF, so it was understood that the mold was for .44-40.  Those who are interested in such things, know that the .44 WCF was the first center fire caliber to be chambered by Winchester.  Few people know that the second center fire caliber chambered by Winchester was .45-75 WCF.  A major change took place with the introduction of the 1876 model in .45-75 WCF caliber.  After that introduction, all second model molds, along with 1875 model reloading tools were marked with the caliber designation.  However, it was not until the second model 1880 tool was developed, that the Winchester name became a standard addition.  Pictured here is the 2nd model Winchester mold from the previous post as well as the original 1875 Winchester reloading tool and decapping pin.  The mold, tool and pin are all marked with the caliber designation and the tool still retains much of it's original gold enamel paint.  I purchased all of these items as a group from a private party in Texas, many years ago.

Adios,
Buck

[Grizzly Adams]

Great post, Buck, and very informative.  

" Few people know that the second center fire caliber chambered by Winchester was .45-75 WCF.  I don't believe I have ever heard before!

That reloading tool is just too cool!

[john boy]

Grizzly - Buck, here is my understanding of the time lines of WCF calibers:
M1866

• 44 Rimfire
• 44 Henry Flat or 44 Henry Centerfire, RARE - few conversions made and few cartridges exist

M1873 and 1876

• M1873 - 44WCF - introduced 1873 - The First WCF
• M1876 - 45-70  - 2 trial rifles for the military - 1873
• M1876 - 45-75 - introduced 1876 - The Second WCF
• M1876 - 45-90 - possible introduction 1878
• M1876 - 45-60 - introduced 1879
• M1876 - 50-95 - introduced 1879
• M1873 -38WCF - introduced 1880
• M1873 -32WCF - introduced 1882
• M1876 - 40-60 - introduced 1884

Now, one has to propose:  Was there any intent to shoot 45-75 PP bullets from the '76 rifle?
Buck, if you wouldn't mind - what is the length of the 353gr naked bullet?  May just have to take my adjustable PP mold and wrap a few for a test fly or two!

PS:  Thanks for the great mold pictures and information.  This forum is getting better and better every day with the informative information and historical pictures.  Sure beats the SASS Wire!

[Buck Stinson]

To Grizzly,  I'm glad you like to reloading tool.  So do I.

To John Boy and others who may be interested.  The sizes on the "naked" bullet are as follows:    length,  .835,   diameter as ejected from the mold, .458.   There are two good reasons why in my opinion, Winchester would not have expected their customers to paper patch the bullets cast from either the companies 1st or 2nd model molds.   First, the paper patch bullet would have to be loaded as a single shot.  Even if it would chamber, you couldn't load it through the loading gate without tearing up the patch.  The very selling point of these model guns (model 1873 and 1876) was the fact that they were repeaters.   Loading them as single shots with paper patch bullets, defeats the repeater idea.  Second, since the bullet I've cast from my 2nd model mold is .458 in diameter, it seems unlikely that a paper patch would work very well.  All of the original 1876 model Winchesters I've owned, ranged from .457 to .459 in bore size.  The only exception I have found is my Mountie carbine which is .455.  This is however, a late gun and well after the production dates of these first two Winchester molds. 

The introduction dates you list are absolutely correct.  However, I don't think the .45-70 or the .45-90 could be included, because these were not production calibers for the 1876 model.   There are in fact, a very few early 1876 models in the Winchester ledgers, listed by serial number, with the caliber designation as .45-70.  It is believed that this was nothing more than an error in listing each gun.  A couple of these serial numbers have actually surfaced as guns that still exist today and both were found to be chambered for .45-75 WCF.  No guns in the entire warehouse ledgers are listed as being .45-90 caliber.

I have to agree that this forum is exciting and interesting.  Yes, it does beat the SASS Wire in my opinion.

Adios,
Buck

[john boy]

The sizes on the "naked" bullet are as follows: length, .835, diameter as ejected from the mold, .458.

Thanks Buck - all will worked nicely in my adjustable PP mold.  It was cut by Fred Leeth for the '74 Sharps bullet and drops a 1:20 at 448.  I will resize to 446 and wrap 2x with 16# - 25% cotton.  This will get me on the money for a PP bullet for this rifle.  The barrels on the Chaparral (at least mine) are:
Bore – 451
Groove - 456

The primary reason for purchasing my Chaparral was a rifle being fed single shot for our 100-200-300yd matches that we hold at our club.  In fact, 4 of us purchased one for the same purpose. Only 2 of us shoot any PP's of any caliber - so I will have to make some up for my friend Swiss Oscar aka Bill Roth

No guns in the entire warehouse ledgers are listed as being .45-90 caliber.

That's what I've read too, contray to what the Winchester authors say there 'may' have been some chambered

[Buck Stinson]

John Boy,
Please keep me posted as to how the patching works out for your '76. 

Adios,
Buck

[w44wcf]

Based on these bullets pulled from other b.p. cartridges..............

I am thinking that there would have been a separate tool that would have rolled the lube grooves into a smooth bullet from your mold like the ones were produced in the pic.

Food for thought anyway.

w44wcf