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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Barracks  |  GAF Regulations (Moderator: Pitspitr)  |  Topic: GAF Class Structure and Battle Rifle Standards 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: GAF Class Structure and Battle Rifle Standards  (Read 53961 times)
Bow View Haymaker
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« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2009, 11:25:08 am »

Is the Ruger Balck hawk allowed in the Scout cataogiry?  I have a EAA Bounty hunter that will be my main sidearm but was going to bring the Blackhawk as a backup if needed.  Otherwise I may borrow a Vaquero. 
thanks
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« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2009, 11:36:47 am »

I don't think so. I know it is not allowed in NCOWS. It is allowed in SASS.
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« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2009, 12:33:30 pm »

Although the Ruger Blackhawk is not specifically listed as either a "Allowed" or "Not Allowed" in the firearms section of the NCOWS By-Laws, that is because it clearly fails to meet both of the following general criteria set out therein:
- "Cartridge firearms shall be original to the period or authentic reproductions of original makes and models."
- "Sights for all firearms shall be of original design or configuration."


Having hopefully answered your question (though perhaps not the way you might have hoped), I must thank you for asking it, because while I was checking the specifics on the NCOWS website, I discovered to my absolute horror that the NCOWS "powers that be" have adopted a wording amendment which, by clearly requiring "Birds-head or Banana grips" for (apparently) all Webley revolvers, effectively disallows a great many (perhaps the majority) of pre-1900 non-military Webley designs!
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I believe I know what they intended, because grip configuration is a fairly good and simple criterion for determining eligibility of War Department "service revolvers".   However, most pre-1900 non-military-issue Webley revolvers do not have such a grip configuration.  I will immediately be posting an alert in the NCOWS Chambers regarding this glaring error!!!
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Drydock
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« Reply #53 on: September 25, 2009, 12:36:17 pm »

For Handguns outside of our military concern, we generaly follow NCOWs practice, so no, the Blackhawk is not allowed.  Basicaly the only Ruger that can be used is the Vaquero/Bisley Vaquero.

HOWSUMEVER!  While we follow NCOWs practice in many ways, we are not part of NCOWS, we have our own rules package and requirements.  Our handguns shall be Milspec or of demonstrated Military use in the Victorian era.  This thus allows all Webleys of Jacks concern.  It also allows the use of the SAA and its clones, of which the Vaquero is considered to be one.  The Blackhawk does not meet this criteria.
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« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2009, 01:30:08 pm »

Bowview, I have a spare SAA if you need a backup gun.

So, where NCOWS directly states that Birdshead Vaqueros are not legal, and they are not military, are they illegal in GAF as well?
The gun is the same, its just different grips and grip frame.
Doesnt matter for the Muster, but it is what I normally shoot in SASS, so am curious.
DM
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« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2009, 05:00:32 pm »

"Or of demonstrated military use in the Victorian era"

Folks keep missing that for some reason.  Birds head gripped weapons were private purchased and carried by military personel in some instances.  Particularly by civilian scouts.  The Merwin and Hulbert pocket models, as well as the Colt DAs come to mind. 

In any case, for GAF, all Vaquero models are allowed, as they are considered a Colt Clone, regardless of grip configuration.  As always, if in uniform in a Milspec class, you will be judged on your uniform as a consideration for Brigade champion, and the sidearm is part of your uniform.
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Bow View Haymaker
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« Reply #56 on: September 26, 2009, 03:17:46 am »

Thanks for the info,
O'll leave the blackhawk at home.
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Bow View Haymaker

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« Reply #57 on: September 26, 2009, 04:50:36 pm »

I discovered to my absolute horror that the NCOWS "powers that be" have adopted a wording amendment which, by clearly requiring "Birds-head or Banana grips" for (apparently) all Webley revolvers, effectively disallows a great many (perhaps the majority) of pre-1900 non-military Webley designs!
 Shocked  Embarrassed  Huh
I believe I know what they intended, because grip configuration is a fairly good and simple criterion for determining eligibility of War Department "service revolvers".   However, most pre-1900 non-military-issue Webley revolvers do not have such a grip configuration.  I will immediately be posting an alert in the NCOWS Chambers regarding this glaring error!!!

I read that, and what I assume they mean by "bannana grip" is the usual webley grip, kind of round cross section, not much curve, kind of like if you cut a bannana in half. What I THINK they are not allowing is the really blocky shape grip, like on some of the later .38 cal ones.
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« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2009, 08:26:07 pm »

I read that, and what I assume they mean by "bannana grip" is the usual webley grip, kind of round cross section, not much curve, kind of like if you cut a bannana in half. What I THINK they are not allowing is the really blocky shape grip, like on some of the later .38 cal ones.

Pony Express -  if I correctly understand your definition of "banana grip" - namely, that it would also allow grips shaped like those on the RIC models illustrated in the NCOWS Chambers topic I started on this issue  -  I suppose that would alleviate part of the problem, so long as that indeed was either the intended meaning or the actual interpretation in practice.  

However, that would still leave a major problem with many other pre-1900 non-military Webley models which do happen to have a "blocky" grip of the sort apparently banned - such as the No. 4, No. 5 and WG models also pictured in the above-noted NCOWS Chambers thread.

In any event, since Webley military service revolver models are apparently the only specific examples cited in the By-Laws ("MK1, MK2, MK4, MK5") -because the term "Mark" to designate a particular variant was strictly War Department (i.e. military) terminology - such a listing would be understood by persons familiar with  Webley revolvers to refer specifically to the military service revolvers only, leading in turn to the definite impression that the grip shape mandated by the rule must refer solely to the "birds-head" grip shape which all of those military service models have, like this. -



Actually, there is even one other wee problem with the current wording (which I have intentionally avoided mentioning so far.)     Strictly speaking, there are no such 19th-century Webley revolver models as are listed in the By-Laws!   When designating various "Marks" of a firearm (or any piece of military equipment) the Victorian-era British War Department invariably employed capital Roman numerals .... so the examples given would be correctly called "Mk I, Mk II, Mk IV, Mk V" ....  

Nitpicking?   Perhaps ..... yet when governing By-Laws are mandating what is allowed or disallowed, correct terminology is mighty important!
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« Reply #59 on: March 22, 2010, 06:40:18 pm »

I have a question.  Before I ask it let me say I think that the Grand Army of the Frontier is a great organization that puts out a lot of good info and upholds the Golden Era of Victorian Militaria.

Would the use of the Winchester M1876, NWMP configuration be allowed in this venue?  I know the original were in .45-75 but I have seen reprodutions in both .45-75 and .45-60.
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« Reply #60 on: March 22, 2010, 08:41:34 pm »

I believe you can BUT, not in any of the "main battle rifle" categories. I remember reading some discussion about that, probably in the thread about battle rifle standards.

Edit: It would be classified in the "militia class, according to the first post in this thread. Lever action, rifle caliber, under barrel magazine.
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Drydock
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« Reply #61 on: March 26, 2010, 03:58:04 pm »

Sorry, my computer crashed for a few days.  The Winchester M1876 in NWMP configuration is considered a Militia class weapon.
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« Reply #62 on: March 26, 2010, 09:23:25 pm »

Hey there guys, here is some info on Birdshead and Bisley Vaqueros. Neither one is allowed in NCOWS, reason being is the Colt birdhead came in DA only and the new Ruger is SA. As for the Bisley Vaqueros the grip is no way near what the Colt was. I own a pair of both and can not use them when I shoot with NCOWS, with SASS it does'nt matter.
By the way I woulld be willing to trade them.
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« Reply #63 on: March 28, 2010, 08:41:39 am »

What about the muzzleloading arms and breechloading carbines of the American Civil War era? These were certainly in the time period that GAF states, and many were still in use up until the early 1870's in Army units and later in militia units. I'm thinking of the Springfield and Enfield rifle muskets, the Smith, Maynard, Sharps (percussion), Hall, Gallagher carbines, etc.
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Drydock
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« Reply #64 on: March 28, 2010, 09:02:54 am »

No, 2 reasons: they cannot be properly integrated into a modern multigun combat format, and they allready have organizations that provide a suitable venue, IE NSSA among others.  

Our timeline allows the use of those early cartridge weapons such as the Spencer and Henry.  That there is some technogical overlap is both normal and inevitable.

Thus we concentrate on the milspec cartridge weapons of the Victorian era, which previously have had no suitable format, and we require the use of fixed ammunition with self contained priming, as stated in the first paragraph of "Examples"
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Dusty Tagalon
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« Reply #65 on: August 01, 2010, 07:58:44 pm »

I have a 1894 Mountain Carbine, Swedish. If I were to put together an outfit, could I sub a Russian Nagant revolver for a Swedish? The mountain carbine was expensive enough, the 7.5 Swede Nagant is more expensive then the rifle.

Brian
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« Reply #66 on: August 01, 2010, 08:43:54 pm »

Yes!  The GAF applauds and encourages such efforts!  Remember as well, when in doubt, a single action will always be acceptable.
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Dusty Tagalon
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« Reply #67 on: August 06, 2010, 06:17:14 pm »

Actually, thinking about it, if I do get a costume together, initially shoot as infantry man, & not worry about the revolver at this time.

Brian
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Drydock
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« Reply #68 on: July 24, 2012, 09:21:16 am »

Just to expand a bit, the Russian 1895 Nagant revolver would work well for any european portrayal outside of Germany or Great Britian.  If they did not have a Nagant, they had something that looked just like one!
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« Reply #69 on: July 20, 2015, 07:32:23 am »

Drydock,

I have sent a PM regarding battle rifle qualifications.
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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Barracks  |  GAF Regulations (Moderator: Pitspitr)  |  Topic: GAF Class Structure and Battle Rifle Standards « previous next »
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