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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Barracks  |  GAF Regulations (Moderator: Pitspitr)  |  Topic: GAF Class Structure and Battle Rifle Standards 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: GAF Class Structure and Battle Rifle Standards  (Read 54051 times)
Bull Schmitt
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« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2008, 08:34:54 pm »

Gentlemen,

Just a thought. If we eliminated the time element from the matches and emphasized accuracy the use of speed loaders would not be an issue. The time element is something we inherited from CAS and may not be appropriate for GAF.

Of course I have been out in left field before.

Col Bull
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« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2008, 10:01:34 pm »

No, this is a combat match, take away the timer and it becomes a target shoot.  In combat, speed of engagement is critical, and we are nothing if not a combat scenario oriented outfit.
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« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2008, 10:19:19 pm »

I thought I would just run it up the flag pole and see if anyone saluted it. I think you are probably right.
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« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2008, 09:09:36 am »

No, this is a combat match, take away the timer and it becomes a target shoot.  In combat, speed of engagement is critical, and we are nothing if not a combat scenario oriented outfit.
I agree. I also think we need to incorporate some stages that make you think a little.
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« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2008, 07:58:34 pm »

I kind of like the full pistol reloads.  I thought I was getting better at it with my Remington conversion by the end of the Grand muster Grin
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« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2009, 10:00:56 am »

 Hello Gentlemen,

In the GAF list of approved firearms for use in GAF Marksmanship competitions... you have the
Colt 1871-72 OPEN TOP MODEL RIMFIRE listed. As I am sure most everyone here knows that there
are no repros that I am aware of that are made in rimfire. So why is it listed as such?

 I am planning on shooting in the Scout catagory using an 1866 Yellow Boy short rifle and an 1871-72 Open
Top both in .44 special caliber but loaded with black powder. Are these two firearms acceptable
in that catagory? Thank you in advance for any help.

 Shotgun Steve
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« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2009, 01:21:22 am »

Yes, both weapons are acceptable.  While weapons are often listed in their orginal calibers, the GAF recognizes the need for reasonable caliber substitutions.
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« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2009, 12:29:16 pm »

Thanks Sarge. I thought that was the answer I would recieve, but I don't like to assume anything. Grin
 Take Care
 Shotgun Steve
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« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2009, 02:40:35 pm »

I am in the process of aquiring a Krag rifle for the GAF Muster in the fall.  I am not a reloader, so is ammo available in this caliber?
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« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2009, 11:35:33 am »

Unfortunatly, while Remington and Winchester do make runs of .30 US every year, it is loaded with a 180 jacketed soft point at 2450 FPS.  This ammo cannot be used at a GAF shoot, which requires a CAS spec lead bullet (Gas check allowed at Match discretion) at no more than 1400 fps.  I'm afraid you either need to reload, or find someone who does. 

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« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2009, 03:12:06 pm »

TL -

Lots of reloading info and components available, if you can find someone to load for you ......

Although original ammunition had jacketed bullets, safety and target preservation dictate use of cast bullets only in this type of shooting, of course ......

There are some commercial custom loaders who offer .30-40 loads, but you would have to ensure that they will do them with cast bullets.
Here is one loader who offers it  (Hard Cast Lead 165 gr. bullet; price $30.94/20) - http://www.customcartridge.com/products/browse_legend.php

Here is one writeup you may find of interest - http://www.frfrogspad.com/kragrifl.htm
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« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2009, 02:35:05 pm »

.... a GAF shoot ..... requires a CAS spec lead bullet (Gas check allowed at Match discretion) .......

Are gas-checked bullets are allowed on the range at Ord for the GAF National Muster?


"And now for the rest of the story ...."
I am pondering a rather significant change of pace this year .... i.e. entering in the Mil-spec Repeater class, and using my .303 'Rifle, Magazine, Lee-Enfield'  (MLE) .....


Unfortunately, the bandolier in that photo is actually a rather glaring anachronism .... it is a Pattern 1903 bandolier, designed to accommodate cartridges held in 5-round chargers which came in with the introduction that year of the 'Rifle, Short, Magazine, Lee-Enfield' (i.e. SMLE)  The design of the MLE requires the magazine to be charged one cartridge at a time, so the correct accoutrement for it is the Pattern 1888 Bandolier.  I do have one of the rather nice reproductions of that bandolier offered by IMA .... just haven't ever gotten around to re-photographing my MLE with it ....


As an aside, here is one image of a Canadian Boer War serviceman with his Magazine Lee-Enfield rifle and revolver (almost certainly either a Colt Model 1878 or Colt New Service) and equipped with a Pattern 1888 bandolier .....  Trooper, Lord Strathcona's Horse -

This Boer War mounted unit was composed mainly of former North West Mounted Police (many of them still actively serving but granted leaves of absence to serve in South Africa) and western stockmen.  The unit was raised and equipped at the personal expense of Baron Strathcona and Mount Royal (Scottish-born Canadian financier and politician Sir Donald Smith, former Governor of the Hudspn's Bay Company, and President of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company.) 

Lord Strathcona's Horse was commanded by Colonel (later Sir) Samuel Benfield Steele ..... who has been referred to as the "Quintessential Mountie".   He was the third man to enroll  in the newly formed NWMP in 1873, and held the rank of Superintendent when assigned in 1898 to NWMP command in the Yukon Territory during the Klondike gold rush.  In 1899 he was granted leave of absence to serve in the Boer War.  Here he is in his uniform as Officer Commanding Lord Strathcona's Horse -
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Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
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« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2009, 03:08:34 pm »

You would need to ask Pitspitr that, though I've yet to encounter any problems with the Gas Checks on my .30 US rounds.  BTW, was there a carbine version of the MLE?  Or the MLM for that matter?
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« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2009, 10:37:16 pm »

Greetings, Sergeant!

Yes, there were standard carbine versions -

Carbine, Magazine Lee-Metford -


Carbine, Magazine Lee-Enfield -


These carbines were designed for issue to cavalry, primarily, and have no provision for a bayonet.  They had shallower 6-round magazines in lieu of the 10-round magazine of the MLM MkII  and MLE rifles (the MkI MLM rifle had an 8-round magazine.)

A special "contract carbine" model was produced for New Zealand, starting in 1900 ....  these were modified  MLM and MLE carbines with a shortened fore-end and nosecap with bayonet mount  for the Pattern 1888 bayonet -


Finally, in 1903, a similar contract carbine was produced for the Royal Irish Constabulary -


The Boer War was a great learning experience for the British military - they started out fielding traditional infantry and cavalry for the most part, but as the war progressed mounted infantry proved to be by far the most useful troops for the conditions encountered in South Africa.   However, the long infantry-pattern rifle was rather cumbersome for such troops,  as will be quite evident in these photos of Canadian Mounted Rifles ....

The standard method of carrying the infantry rifle on horseback, with the butt resting in a "short bucket" and steadied by a strap from the fore-end going around the right arm, is illustrated in these first two photos -
  - 

To be "at the ready" and able to dismount quickly,  the rifle was generally carried in one of these ways -
   - 

Note that both of the fellows above have regular slings on their rifles.  In this image of the 2nd Regiment of Canadian Mounted Rifles on the march, the fellow on the left  in front carries his rifle slung over the back, while the man beside him carries his across the saddle pommel (the arm strap is clearly visible dangling from the fore-end of that rifle -


At any rate, the unsuitability of the long rifle for mounted carry and the desire to have a standardized weapon in lieu of rifle and carbine versions resulted in the adoption in 1903 of the "Rifle, Short, Magazine Lee-Enfield"  - the renowned "SMLE" which served the British Empire so well during WWI -

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« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2009, 03:47:07 am »

Its interesting that the Americans and British, both engaged in irregular campaigns at the turn of the century, came to the same conclusion at the same time, both developing "Short Rifles" in 1903.
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« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2009, 10:57:19 pm »

I believe gas checks are allowed at Ord But I will need to check with Ned Neiderlander to be certain.

Sgt. Drydock What would be the Battle Rifle ruling on a device similar to the Metcalf device?

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« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2009, 11:08:59 pm »

If it was attached to your belt/person it would be a mode of conveyance, attached to the weapon its a loading aid, and is not allowed.
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« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2009, 06:51:25 am »

That was my guess. Thanks for the reply.
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« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2009, 09:21:57 pm »

i thought of a solution 2 the broomhandle single loading problem  why not load some stripper clips with only 1 round of ammo   that way you can hold the bolt open 4 loading without risking accidental discharge
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« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2009, 09:45:35 pm »

That has allready been discussed, the c96 shooter is allowed one stripper clip to use as he sees fit once the stage has begun. He can use it for a reload, then to manipulate the bolt as needed.
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« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2009, 03:51:39 pm »

since this is the post with the rules i was curious about what the rules are regarding pistols with detachable stocks can someone use them with the stock attached or do they have to remove it?    also is the c96 carbine allowed what class would it be in and does the stripper clip rule for the pistol count for the carbine?
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« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2009, 12:24:47 pm »

The c96 is classified as a handgun and will be used as such, you can attach a stock if you want, but it will be used as a handgun to engage handgun targets.  Same with any other detachable stock handgun. Permenant stock Hangun caliber revolving carbines such as the Remington are scout class carbines.

The exceedingly rare original Mauser c96 Carbine was never adopted by anyone, and never enjoyed commercial success.  it does not fit anywhere well in our genre, thus it is not allowed.
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« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2009, 01:37:13 pm »

Howdy,

Is there a minimum Handgun caliber for shooting in the Milspec Single Shot category?  Is .38 ok or does it need to be .45?

Thanks,

Capt Mack
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« Reply #48 on: September 01, 2009, 05:34:04 pm »

Milspec handguns may be any appropriate Milspec caliber, depending on the weapon.  .30 Mauser up to .455 Ely.  Appropriate Non Milspec handguns of demonstrated Military use have a minimum bore diameter of .357. 

Remember, in the Milspec classes, hanguns should be related in period and usage to the rifle being used.  The rifle is the determining factor here.  Some pairings may be difficult/impossible to achieve, reasonable substitution is allowed.  Example.  It can be very hard to find a servicable M1892 New Army to pair with a Krag.  An appropriate 41 frame colt (Army Special, Offical Police) is allowed if in Proper configuration (blued, 6" pencil barrel).   A Ruger Vaquero is considered an appropriate substitution for a Colt SAA in proper barrel length.  While calibers in Milspec classes are to be milspec, resonable substitutions are allowed upon request.  If you're reqesting to use a .38 in your class, Consider it granted.

In the Milspec Single shot classes, If you're carrying say an M1873 trapdoor, you should be using a .45 caliber 7 1/2" SAA or Schofield.  A .38 SAA would be considered a reasonalble substitution for the shooting compition,  Heck, an infantryman not normaly issued a sidearm might well consider a lighter private purchase .38 to carry, say a small top break S&W.  A .38 Ruger is a reasonable substitution as well for the shooting compition, but could cost style points (!) in field uniform judging, a component of the Brigade Champion award   Cheesy  No, we're  not stitch counters, but it is a consideration.

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« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2009, 11:33:45 am »

Ok, good deal.  I'm bringing my Sharp's carbine and Trapdoor carbine so I'll stick to the .45 SAA & Schofield Russian for handguns.  Thanks for the info.

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Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L  |  Special Interests - Groups & Societies  |  The Barracks  |  GAF Regulations (Moderator: Pitspitr)  |  Topic: GAF Class Structure and Battle Rifle Standards « previous next »
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